why carr? (Official David Carr FanPost)
by pwarren85 on Mar 10, 2010 8:22 AM PST
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Printso i posted this at the bottom of the post, but im curious about what people think in this regard. i know arizona is hurting right now... in many facets of their team... so this was a thought on why the niners wanted to pick up carr... maybe im off but its an idea.
anyone see this as keep-away from the cards?
maybe its just me but it would probly be worth 2 million guaranteed to keep some guy you MIGHT look at as a threat in AZ, as opposed to pretty boy matt down there.
other than that i dont really care either way. i liked hill cause he looked like he enjoyed beer.
[EDIT]: This is howtheyscored. I think this is an interesting angle on the signing, but I'm also assigning this as the official David Carr FanPost. Either I or another moderator will paste the contents of any new Carr threads after this point into this thread, so we can keep things organized. However, if a new thread brings up a particularly well thought out and compelling point, we'll leave it alone.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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I think it’s Jimmy Raye’s wild card. Haven’t the 49ers said somewhere before that they want to be a team that can run and take their shots deep? Smith nor Hill have that kind of arm strength. Just thinking about it now, nearly all the QBs the 49ers have mentioned by the niner brass since Jimmy Raye got the job have strong arms; Michael Vick, David Carr, Nate Davis, Damon Huard(odd man out)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYtjpIwamos
1.Brandon Graham 1.Charles Brown 2. Syd Thompson 3.Torell Troup 4.Andrew Quarless 5.John Jerry 6.Mike Kafka 7.Quinton Andrews 7.Preston Parker
We’re just a couple o’ oil men in from Dallas…
Also known to haunt as theghostoftravisdenker and theaccidentalghostofsergioromo.
by theghostofjasonellison on Mar 8, 2010 9:20 PM PST up reply actions
That was a hilarious episode.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
wow
i love this site even more…sunny fans are the best
It's just a plant, it grows in the earth, and if you happen to set it on fire there are some effects...
How can you not like that show? Frank and Mac consistently have me busting a gut.
xanthan: "Sabean is going to get 2 year extensions for the rest of our lives. We just need to deal with that realization."
Missing Barry: "If I deal with that realization and the realization that Cohan is never going to sell the Warriors….well, for my own health, I’m not going to acknowledge those things."
I do think alex has the arm 4 it its really about who has the speed
2 go get it when 2 of you’re deep threats is a receiver who’s really a tight end and you’re other deep threat ( jason hill ) can’t even get on the field alex chances are slim not 2 mention a coach who’s obsessed with running alex can’t show his arm.
by jayjonna415 on Mar 11, 2010 12:49 PM PST up reply actions
A coach obsessed with running, this misconception of Singletary's philosophy is a bit ridiculous.
You have to run more with Hill as your QB, and with Smith, you probably should run more, but he operates better out of the Gun ad hence you pass more. Sing’s philosophy is finding consitency and he would rather have a consitent running game, because it prepares you to win the cold ones. If the Saints had to play where it was freezing we may be looking at a different Champion.
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
Alex Smith is not a bust, he is a product of poor management and coaching.
For the record:
I’ll be removing extraneous David Carr threads. I’m leaving this one up and running because it brings up a new angle on the signing. As the David Carr threads fall off the main page, let’s all use this as the main Carr thread for any remaining discussion.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
From vatoff:
Dont hate on Carr he has a rifle arm and really like Smith was put in a bad position when drafted by Texas. Most sacks against a QB in the years in Texas. Not his fault. If given the chance he can lead the Niners to a Western conference championship. Then who knows anything can happen. Iam sure Smith will be given the chance first and if he can do the job that will be great. If not Carr could be the man.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
What’s a Western conference championship?
I survived the David Carr Press Conference Thread 3/06/2010
Credit to iaalexeeff
by Hoopers Judge on Mar 10, 2010 2:25 PM PST up reply actions
I think he just means winning the division.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 2:30 PM PST up reply actions
Oh shoot. Now I want a Western Bacon Cheeseburger.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 2:35 PM PST up reply actions
I haven't at Carls Jr in over 2 years
And there is one like 4 blocks away from my house.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Mar 10, 2010 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
Now that is incredible restraint.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
I had some weird problem with burgers though
2 years ago I would eat at least one burger a week (I lived 20-50 ft away from a fast food joint).
After I moved I stopped eating them for some reason.
I can’t explain it….
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Mar 10, 2010 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
lol
I eat a lot of cereal now though.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Mar 11, 2010 5:22 PM PST up reply actions
Can you tell me where do
You get this confidence that he could lead any team let alone the niners ,he had a chance 2 step up in carolina behind a much better line and QB( jake.d ) who can be very eratic.Now i know fox and the orginazation was behind jake but carr didn’t light league on fire when he did get his oppertunity i think this is it if he can’t show that he can elavate his game in pre-season then he will be a legitamate bust.
Just to clarify, I was just pasting a comment here that somebody else made a brand new thread for (against the express written instructions of the “Official FanPost!”). That’s vatoff’s opinion, not mine.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 11, 2010 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
I think Carr can be a reliable backup
While I am a Smith supporter if he doesn’t do well I’d rather go to Carr than Hill. Truthfully should give Davis another year before trotting him out to the wolves and Carr gives that flexibility. He does have a good arm if he has protection, he is no way a quarterback of the future but I think reliable backup.
Consider Carr as the starter; A Smith goes down
Hypothetical:
Smith goes down early and Carr comes in and, big surprise, he still won’t be able to master an offense. That’s the only ponderance of the qb situation right meow : an injury waiting to happen and a backup with a nice big arm who can’t grasp an offense. Would of been nice to be justified in trying to steal bradford or clausen at 13 or picking up Lefevor or whoever the heck in 2; or messing with picks however to get one of those three, not gonna happen now though. Nate Davis still looked good last preseason though, I bet we see some better decision making and a quicker release outta Nate in this preseason, that’s our super bowl shot for the next few years: the progression of Davis!
Ridiculous
Our prospects on beating Arizona for the division title depend upon keeping David Carr from becoming the Cardinals backup QB? If that’s the case the 49ers have no shot to begin with.
On a different note, now that it is the appropriate forum, is David Carr really an upgrade? Ya, ya, ya he’s got an arm to lead a team back from a 10 point deficit . . . like that has ever been the sought after trait for a backup QB. His history suggests he is more likely to give up a 10 point lead taking 5 sacks and 3 morally crushing INTs, sucking away all hope the team can win any game with him as QB.
I’ve heard about enough about the bruised and battered David Carr stories. Houston didn’t dump him because he was broken in half, they gave up on him because after a long, painful evaluation they concluded he was primarily reasonable for all those sacks. What year was that, 2006? I do remember all the David Carr articles and jokes along the lines that he has to actually pass the ball and keep the play alive to avoid the sack.
Anyways I know I’m in the small minority on this. Many see the former #1 pick, abused than discarded now with a chance to heal and perform story line. Therefore I’m going to refer to him as
I actually like David Carr. I doubt he’ll amount to much at this point in his career, but I also don’t see the point in getting bent out of shape over a backup quarterback. As far as I can tell, he’s basically a lateral move from Shaun Hill. Even the most pessimistic person about the move probably only thinks Carr is slightly worse than Hill. And the most optimistic person about the move is probably one of the psychos who thinks Carr is going to win the starting job out of camp.
So clearly, the pessimists here the more sane of the group….
But say it’s basically a lateral move from Hill. If you don’t agree with that, that’s a completely different conversation and I invite you to stop reading this right now and we can get moving on that other conversation.
But if you accept that it’s a lateral move from Hill to Carr, my big question is this: “So what?” Since when was shuffling backups any kind of news? I just don’t understand all the hubbub. We’re in the same exact place we were. Smith is getting his last chance and we have a backup with no upside and Nate Davis behind him.
The front office clearly sees it as a depth move while they bide their time for the draft. It’s just so inconsequential I can’t figure out what the big deal is. At best Carr is a better backup than Shaun Hill. At the worst, Carr is another in a long line of this front office failing to plan for any kind of future beyond Alex Smith.
In my opinion, that first one doesn’t matter at all. But the second one, that’s what the big deal should be. Is the front office still just pinning its hopes on Alex Smith without so much as a second thought for a reasonable plan B? That’s what I think should concern people about this – the idea that McLoughan and Singletary might just be comfortable moving into 2010 with Smith, Carr, Davis.
That’s the scary thought to me.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 8, 2010 11:11 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with the concept of a lateral move. Trading a QB who can manage a lead but cannot overcome a deficit with a QB who can overcome a deficit but is suspect about managing a lead.
Actually this concept of a lateral move is why I really don’t like it. For what? Based on teammates twitters it wasn’t a popular decision . . . so was it worth it?
I know you didn’t read Tim’s article, but lets say Alex struggles again in camp and preseason (as he often has). With Hill on the team there was no chance of a QB controversy. Now with Carr, the 49ers would be in awful scenario.
A lateral move ought to position the team in a more stable situation, not less stable. You think it isn’t a good plan B, I think it’s already undermining plan A.
Well, primarily, I just hope that the team is too smart to let a “quarterback controversy” develop this offseason. They have to know that this is Smith’s last hurrah, and also that it’s their last hurrah with the Smith experiment. I just can’t believe that they’re stupid enough to let David Carr change their minds about going through with the plan on Smith.
So if Smith fails to wow in the preseason, I think the job is just plain his. I don’t think his preseason performance will have a lot to do with it this season. The team can’t be that stupid. And if they are, my attitude toward the coaches and front office is going to get quite a bit more sour.
So my opinion really is that it’s backup shuffling and that it has no bearing on Alex Smith’s standing as the opening day starter.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 9, 2010 8:24 AM PST up reply actions
BING BING BING!!
WE HAVE A WINNER HERE!!
In my opinion, that first one doesn’t matter at all. But the second one, that’s what the big deal should be. Is the front office still just pinning its hopes on Alex Smith without so much as a second thought for a reasonable plan B? That’s what I think should concern people about this – the idea that McLoughan and Singletary might just be comfortable moving into 2010 with Smith, Carr, Davis.
Well, we're waiting....
And my opinion will swing either toward or away from that fear based pretty much on how the draft plays out.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
QB Comparison Not Valid to Niner Brass
Starting Records Carr: 25-56 Smith: 16-24 Hill: 10-6
Winning % Carr: .291 Smith: .400 Hill: .625
Comp. % Carr: 59.8 Smith: 56.3 Hill: 61.7
Yds Per Att. Carr: 6.4 Smith: 6.0 Hill: 6.7
Rating Carr: 75.2 Smith: 69.2 Hill: 87.3
Who’s nuts here? How cool will it now be if Hill goes to Cardinals.
Well, I think that Records, Winning %, and Rating should be thrown out right now. But even beyond that, there are some extremely misleading things going on with that kind of breakdown.
Carr hasn’t had any significant playing time since 2006. And even before that, his stats suffered wild year-to-year fluctuations. Is he that guy from 2004 who looked like he might make something of himself? Or is he that guy from 2006 who couldn’t do the single most important thing for a quarterback to do: throw a touchdown? Or is he somewhere in between? However, with Carr at least you do have a relative large total sample. So his career averages are probably somewhat reliable, if still questionable based on the roughly three-year hiatus.
Smith has obvious outliers. You can’t dismiss the outliers, but you can understand them, and Smith career has had a clear and measurable rising arc through 2009. Will it keep rising, will it stop rising, or will it begin to regress? It’s impossible to tell, really. But adding all the points on a growth curve and acting like the early points are equally relevant to the present situation as the most recent ones is still somewhat dishonest.
And…
Hill has the smallest representative sample of all of them. I mean, Carr has 80+ games. That’s a fair amount of data. Smith has 40+. That’s okay. Unreliable, but getting there. Hill has 16. And not just 16 games, but 16 games of wildly inconsistent play. In 2008, Hill was basically the good version of David Carr. Hill 2008 is very similar to David Carr 2004. In 2009, Hill was basically JaMarcus Russell in 2008. And I’m only exaggerating in a very limited sense. Hill’s product in 2009 was, yes, better than Russell in 2008… but not as much better as we might want to think. So who is it? The guy who looked great for 8 games in 2008, or the guy who looked like an absolute bottom feeder in 2009? Which ridiculously small sample do you trust there?
So I reject your proposition. There is a lot of context that you’re simply dismissing.
And Hill on the Cardinals really wouldn’t matter. Leinart is the starter there. If they shuffle backups by bringing in Hill, it honestly makes no difference.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 8, 2010 11:27 PM PST up reply actions
Winning % a Lousy Context?
Again we are back to the irrational argument that arm strength trumps all other qualities. Your claim “that Records, Winning %, and Rating should be thrown out right now”
seems a line from Alice in Wonderland, given that in 2009 clearly the best NFL QB’s were tops in nearly all those categories I sited: Brees, Farve, Rodgers, Rivers, Rotlesberger, Manning, Romo. And why, if stats are irrelevant, do the QB’s who lead the lead in winniing games and in Rating always merit and garner the best contracts.? Gee, must be stupid management there, right?
Hill made Singletary Niner coach – no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Expect another 8 & 8 season or worse without him in 2010..
by Aristophanes on Mar 9, 2010 12:39 AM PST up reply actions
Willis and the D had more impact on Singletary's job than Hill and the O.
Actually, Singletary got Singletary his job, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
With HIll at QB you could expect the niners to be passed by the Rams.
Again we are back to the irrational argument that arm strength trumps all other qualities.
I never said anything resembling that. Way to put words in my mouth.
And since I don’t see anything in your comment that actually addresses anything in mine, I’m not going to continue to address your points either.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 9, 2010 8:20 AM PST up reply actions
howtheyscored is right...
record and winning percent are not good stats to use in this case. Carr came into the league on an expansion team, while Smith came into the league on the worst team in the NFL, and had to start games when he was what, 21? Hill became a starting qb in his mid-late twenties on a pretty decent team. Apples to oranges.
Wins are not a QB stat
Rodgers went 6-10 in 2008, obviously he’s a bad QB
Brees was 8-8 in 2008, average QB right?
Romo has a ridiculously high win pctg. he’s a BEAST, huh?
The 2000 Ravens won the SB with Trent Dilfer, he was an awesome QB right?
Steve Young was 4-18 with the Bucs.
He was such a terrible QB huh?
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Mar 9, 2010 6:36 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Invalid Comparison ! Not apples and apples !
Comparing these Qb’s like this is so foolish its hardly worth responding!
Different teams
Diffrerent O lines
Different RB’s
Different OC’s
Different WR’s
Different team Philosophies
Your comparison is valid between Smith and Hill ONLY !
Carr better than stats show
When David Carr came into the league with the texans he had the worst OL in NFL history.. literally, Carr got sacked more than any other QB in a single season. And the OL didnt get better from there so ofcourse he wasnt gonna have good stats. However if anyone saw him play with the Giants the past couple seasons he was extremely accurate and played extremely smart and has a 97 QB rating to back that up. I saw him play in Fresno State for 3 years and know he can be a reliable starter with a DESCENT OL. I feel he would be a better starter than Smith but do feel he earned that spot the last couple games. Either way i think the NIners made a good choice for a back up as much as i like how smart HIll plays.
Still big questions about Carr
The big question is ‘where is his eye level?’ Is he looking downfield or is he looking at the rush? There have been QBs who have been sacked enough that they stop looking at their receivers and start protecting themselves in the pocket rather than sliding around or stepping up—and this leads them to actually get sacked more. This actually happened in the 1st half of 2009 with Shaun Hill—he just walked into sacks because he was concerned…about getting sacked. It’s bizarre but it happens. Some guys can pull themselves out of that, and I just don’t know if Carr’s that kind of guy.
Jason Hill is turning the corner!
3rd Generation Manning is our Future!
I mean listen, we're sitting here talking about practice, not a game, not a game, but we're talking about practice.
I think Carr is better than Smith.
If he falls to 7, we'd be better off trading up.
1a E Berry, 2a Robinson (FSU CB), 2b J Valdheer, 3a. Mike Johnson, 3b DeMaryius Thomas, 4 Owusu-Ansah, 6 Brandon Banks, 7 Jamar Chaney
TWO FIRSTS USED
Please elaborate. Not many, if any, are actually making that argument. It would be nice to know why you think that.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 9, 2010 9:24 AM PST up reply actions
I think smith is an inaacurate Qb, who cannot play well from under center. i do think it is warranted for Smith to start this season, hence me not going in depth.
I think Carr throws a better ball and is more accurate than Smith downfield. Smith does have time to focus on mechanics, instead of learning a new offense. At this point in time as of today, or seasons end, I think that Carr is more accurate in all of his throws.
If he falls to 7, we'd be better off trading up.
1a E Berry, 2a Robinson (FSU CB), 2b J Valdheer, 3a. Mike Johnson, 3b DeMaryius Thomas, 4 Owusu-Ansah, 6 Brandon Banks, 7 Jamar Chaney
TWO FIRSTS USED
I agree
I can see why they would start Smith based on some upside he may have, but the Niners would probably be better in 2010 with Carr back there.
He has a stronger arm, is more accurate, and a better fit for the offense they really want to run (not spread). He has put up multiple seasons statistically better than Alex’s best, with less talent around him.
That being said, I hope neither of these guys is starting for SF in 2011.
by microwave donut on Mar 9, 2010 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
If Carr is capable
Of not locking onto one receiver and staring him down until everyone on the defense knows where he’s going with the ball, and maybe occasionally seeing a wide open Frank Gore in the flat, I’m sold.
xanthan: "Sabean is going to get 2 year extensions for the rest of our lives. We just need to deal with that realization."
Missing Barry: "If I deal with that realization and the realization that Cohan is never going to sell the Warriors….well, for my own health, I’m not going to acknowledge those things."
Hard to say
You can’t compare one QB to another without a good baseline to go from. Different systems, different O-line, different recievers, until you have them side by side you don’t know who will work for you with some exceptions. Peyton Manning, Brett Favre, Tom Brady, etc. Look at Matt Cassell in with the Patriots vs. his year with the Chiefs. You can see things that you like in a QB with another team, but can’t know for sure. I am guessing that someone in the FO saw something they liked in Carr and are going to give him a shot at the starting job or at the very least a shot at the back up job (more likely). And just like with Huard last year they can still cut him before the season starts so we won’t know until later. Until that time it is all just speculation.
Wierd, I knew that Cassell was not all he was hyped up to be, the Chiefs will suffer for that.
There is a good enough baseline to pay attention to ball placement. That has more to do with accuracy than pass peercentage.
If he falls to 7, we'd be better off trading up.
1a E Berry, 2a Robinson (FSU CB), 2b J Valdheer, 3a. Mike Johnson, 3b DeMaryius Thomas, 4 Owusu-Ansah, 6 Brandon Banks, 7 Jamar Chaney
TWO FIRSTS USED
High Draft Picks
You can’t overlook the high draft picks that Smith has helped us get in the last few years. He was great at helping us build through some higher draft picks. But I hope he has turned the corner and can help us put up a winning record next year.
That wasn't his fault, he should have never became a 49er. we should have went OL in that draft and kept garcia around to help rebuild.
If he falls to 7, we'd be better off trading up.
1a E Berry, 2a Robinson (FSU CB), 2b J Valdheer, 3a. Mike Johnson, 3b DeMaryius Thomas, 4 Owusu-Ansah, 6 Brandon Banks, 7 Jamar Chaney
TWO FIRSTS USED
I agree with you on this
but the first tackle selected in 2005 wasn’t picked until #13. That was Jamaal Brown who is a great LT for the Saints. In fact there were only three offensive linemen selected in the 1st round in 2005. Jamaal Brown, Alex Barron and Chris Spencer
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
^True That^
Smith was and is a bust, the quarterbacks that win superbowls don’t play like crap for five years and then “turn the corner” , the whole point of playing is to get momentum towards winning the SB. With Smith, the nines only, unattainable, goal has been to win the division. I would rather the niners start taking shots in the dark with mid-late round 1 picks, and try and score a Roethlisberger, Cutler or Flacco rather than sticking with some Smith who does not give a crap about football. Smith has made too much gosh darn money and played like too much of a dang pansy to warrant any more time or groupie hope/love. Garcia busted his butt every play for every team he ever played for and if he had Smith’s size and could see over the line he would have been a more highly thought of qb and that would be that.
the quarterbacks that win superbowls don’t play like crap for five years and then "turn the corner"
Really? See: Steve Young 1985-1990 played like “crap”.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
Young was a full time starter for only 1 season between 85-90. He was crappy with Tampa, but a backup here, and everyone knew he was good.
A better comp would be Jim Plunkett. #1 pick who was garbage for the better part of a decade, then came out of nowhere to win 2 SB’s with the Raiders. I guess he could be a comp for Smith or Carr.
by microwave donut on Mar 9, 2010 11:17 AM PST up reply actions
Ok… same point different circumstances. In any case, it’s naive to think that Smith is a bust after how he played last year. When I think bust, I think Ryan Leaf, Cody Pickett, Rick Mirer, Heath Shuler, etc… Smith is still playing and is still relatively young. If he keeps going for 10 years and can stay healthy, and keeps continuity with the same system for more than a year, he’s going to be an above average QB, maybe even better than that.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
Young
everyone knew he was good
Not true. The only one that really had faith in him was Walsh. As I recall, the fan base was outraged by the signing. And for those 5 years (back up or not) he stunk. Fan’s were antsy and wanting to draft QB’s each one of those 5 years. I have been a die-hard Niners fan for as long as I can remember. I watched the ‘81 Superbowl as a small child next to my Dad and have stayed pretty focused on all the happenings ever since. Fans did not want Young cause they thought he was now good. Don’t act like “everyone” knew he was good cause it’s simply a fallacy.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
He had a couple shining moments in those 5 years but a majority was not convinced, the same way they are not convinced with Smith.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
I am not convinced of Smith but I cannot honestly call him a bust.
If he falls to 7, we'd be better off trading up.
1a E Berry, 2a Robinson (FSU CB), 2b J Valdheer, 3a. Mike Johnson, 3b DeMaryius Thomas, 4 Owusu-Ansah, 6 Brandon Banks, 7 Jamar Chaney
TWO FIRSTS USED
Yes you can
He hasn’t lived up to expectations.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Mar 9, 2010 6:38 PM PST up reply actions
Neither did Young at first either, Jim Plunkett, John Elway, etc… I guess they were busts too right?
Crowded elevators smell different to midgets.
to be fair...
the number of QB’s who suck and turn it around <<< the number of QB’s who suck and keep sucking
by microwave donut on Mar 10, 2010 9:59 AM PST up reply actions
Are you one of the people that think Smith “sucked” last year?
Crowded elevators smell different to midgets.
he played well in some games and sucked in others
His overall stats are padded by the final 2 meaningless games vs DET and STL.
The thing that bothers me with Alex is that his yards per attempt are so damn low. As much as the fans bagged on Hill for being the checkdown king, Alex was only marginally better in 2009 (6.3 vs 6.1) in this regard, and way worse than Hill’s 2008. This could be due to a lot of factors though, so it’s hard to pin it all on Alex (or Shaun, for that matter).
If you asked me to classify Smith, I would say he is “barely adequate”. He has some skills, some deficiencies and runs hot and cold. He doesn’t appear to be particularly effective managing the game or controlling the huddle (burning TO’s and delay of games are a problem).
Basically I think Alex gets a a lot of slack from the coaches and fans because he was a #1 pick. If he were a 4th rounder he would have been cut 3 years ago and nobody would have thought twice.
by microwave donut on Mar 11, 2010 2:08 PM PST up reply actions
Well you don't invest a ton of money in a 4th round pick
You want to get as much ROI as you can out of your first overall guy so they tend to hang around longer.
and yes his yards per attempt were lower but there could be a number of things affecting that. He definitely threw more, but he also had receivers dropping the ball more often than Hill did, so that definitely drops the average on yards per attempt.
I think if you want to compare those you should look at yards per completion average. I don’t what the numbers are on that but I’d be willing to guess that they’re significantly different.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
yards per completion
I don’t think it’s an especially good metric, but…
Alex Smith: 10.4
Shaun Hill: 10.8
by microwave donut on Mar 11, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
Interesting
So Shaun Hill and Alex Smith have essentially the same stats. Drill down further and this is what we see:
TDs
Hill: 1/17.4 completions
Smith: 1/12.4 completions
INTs
Hill: 1/77.5
Smith: 1/31
So Smith does score more often but in everything else (other than INT ratio) they’re equal and in the INT ratio Hill is much better.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
And just to add another layer, Danny has suggested in the past that throwing touchdowns is far more important than not throwing interceptions.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 12, 2010 12:12 AM PST up reply actions
And Alex is much MUCH better
at avoiding the rush and giving a drive a chance instead of getting sacked and punting it away. (same as a turnover)
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Mar 12, 2010 1:27 AM PST up reply actions
Punting is better than a turnover
field position. an untimely interception is worse than a dud of a drive. but i’ll take Smith’s higher risk/reward over Hill’s turtle shell tactics, at this point.
Until he does what those guys did, he's a disappointment.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Mar 10, 2010 11:15 AM PST up reply actions
Expectations??
It’s not his fault he was drafted at a spot he SHOULD not have been. The expectations were unfairly attached to the number 1 overal pick. Niner’s brass had more to do with that debacle than Smith.
It’s just like the contract Rolle just received, and Goldson to “EXPECT” the same money after only one full season of play.
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
He was the No.1 overall pick.
It doesn’t matter where he should have been drafted.
The 49ers picked him thinking that he would be their franchise QB.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Mar 10, 2010 2:57 PM PST up reply actions
It was a bad pick and you cannot blame Smith for that. It was a weak draft, it is not his fault the Niners made a mistake. Plus he is 25 and is going into his first offseason without a new OC, common sense would tell you that that alone is enough reaso
n to believe that he was screwed by the Fo. Alex Smith is not a bust, he is a product of poor management and coaching.
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
He's a disappointment in my book.
Until/If he proves me wrong, I’ll continue to refer to him as such.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Mar 11, 2010 5:23 PM PST up reply actions
well we didn't have the internet then
my dad and I always thought he was good, and he played well for the most part when called upon.
by microwave donut on Mar 9, 2010 12:36 PM PST up reply actions
from 87-90 as the SF backup
7-3 as a starter, 23 TD vs 6 INT, 102.1 QB rating, 659 rushing yards.
that seems pretty good
by microwave donut on Mar 9, 2010 12:42 PM PST up reply actions
True, but Young was never getting paid like Smith has been.
Steve Young had the best prime of any quarterback all time, No question. But Smith is getting paid much more than Young ever did and Smith’s nines weren’t awesome but they weren’t as bad as Young’s Bucs. Plus there is only one Steve Young and he played nothing like the stuff Smith does.
Plunkett was Awesome; but that was different era
But you guys are right I guess it takes time, I just hate that number one pick contract hanging out, not caring.
They were just as bad as Youngs bucks
The Niners went 2-14 in 2004 and got blown out by the Seachickens 34-0. We were as bad as those Tampa teams… Just we didn’t have the same history of mediocrity.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Mar 12, 2010 1:31 AM PST up reply actions
Agree I remember how upset I was when Young became starter
I was very upset a the Niners for sending Joe to the Chefs and figured we were done for. I in no way envisioned Young being as good as he was.
Later on I turned but at the time I couldn’t believe how stupid they were.
People didn't know Young was going to be good.
In those first five seasons, Young started 28 games.
In his career so far, Alex Smith has started 30.
This doesn’t mean I think Smith will be as good as Young, but the comparison is perfectly reasonable.
Elway's numbers didn't blow anyone away for his ENTIRE career, he just made plays when he needed them and IMO was overrated as a QB.
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
Well, that’s just wrong. From 1993 until the day he retired, Elway was among the best in the league in most of the significant stats. Take a look at his career +stats on pro-football-reference.com. They tell an extremely compelling tale. And particularly a tale that contradicts the old “Elway won his Super Bowl with his best years behind him” theory. He arguably won those Super Bowls when he was playing the best football of his life.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 9, 2010 12:54 PM PST up reply actions
looking at old Elway stats
Man, he was sacked A LOT
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Mar 9, 2010 6:39 PM PST up reply actions
Running game won those championships.
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
Honestly, Elway didn’t hurt the cause.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 9:10 AM PST up reply actions
I mean, it absolutely kills me that the same people who fight tooth and nail against the argument that Jerry Rice made Joe Montana, or some other whacko thing like that, will fight so hard to say that John Elway was the product of his running game – when he was playing consistently at an elite level for at least two years, on crappy teams, before he ever had the benefit of either Shanahan or Davis.
Elway won the Super Bowls because he had become a great quarterback, and got lucky to also play on great teams. By 1993, he was pretty indisputably a great quarterback on crappy teams. Before that… he was probably overrated. But by 1993, dude was absolutely legit. By 1995, he was a great quarterback on great teams. It’s no surprise that he won a couple of Super Bowls at that point. Put a great quarterback on a great team and these things happen.
But why try to take away from what Elway should obviously be credited individually for – being Hall of Fame good for a damn long time?
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 9:21 AM PST up reply actions
And furthermore, if the argument is that the running game and Shanahan got Elway those Super Bowls, then why did the running game and Shanahan have such a very hard time winning any playoff games whatsoever without Elway?
With Elway, that running game / coaching combination won two Super Bowls in four years and only once had fewer than 12 wins in a season. After Elway, that running game / coaching combination won only a single playoff game in 10 years, and only once had more than 11 wins in a season.
So yeah, I’d say that Elway had a whole hell of a lot to do with those Super Bowl wins.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 9:30 AM PST up reply actions
Because the quarterback play was far worse. i don't credit the running game solely
But Bernie Kosar could have won with those teams. Elway has been heralded as one of the all time greats and that is not true, IMO. Not stating that my opinion is law by any means.
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
And when you say that the quarterback play was much worse, you’re making my argument for me. Because even Griese gave that team well above average performances from the position.
So if Elway was much better than well above average, I’d say that’s a pretty good definition for “great”.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
Note on Griese: He was inconsistent with the Broncos, but at his VERY worst, he was only a shade below average. And at his very best, he was phenomenal for them.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 1:46 PM PST up reply actions
I really resent this statement.
I mean, it absolutely kills me that the same people who fight tooth and nail against the argument that Jerry Rice made Joe Montana, or some other whacko thing like that,
Rice made Rice and Walsh made Montana (the system)
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
So Joe Montana was just some schlub?
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
You're right but he was outweighed in what got it done.
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
I don’t even know what that means. Give me a second here to put Joe Montana on that 1994 Broncos team and see if they win the Super Bowl.
He wasn’t going to win with a crappy team. What quarterback has ever won with a crappy team? I really don’t understand the point. Elway was great. He didn’t win the Super Bowl until he had a great team around him. That describes a hell of a lot of people, and I don’t know why Elway is the one who has to get penalized for it.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
Okay… let me put it this way:
IF Terrel Davis and Mike Shanahan had been on the team without Elway (say some schmoe was quarterbacking the team) and THEN Elway came to the team and they won a Super Bowl, the perception would be that Elway was the critical variable here.
Basic cause and effect. You have something and you add something else and something new happens. Therefore, the something else you added is the important thing.
However…
SINCE Elway was the person there originally, and THEN Shanahan and Davis came on the team and they won, the perception is that TD and MS were the critical variables.
Basic cause and effect. You have something and you add something else and something new happens. Therefore, the something else you added is the important thing.
However…
Perception, meet reality.
The fact is that Elway never won a Super Bowl without those great teams around him, and those great teams that were around him never did jack squat without Elway.
IN FACT, Elway actually did win playoff games and get to a Super Bowl without any of the extra coaching or running game frills we’re talking about here. Without Shanahan or Davis… on a team where the leading rusher was Bobby Humphry and the leading receiver was the mighty Vance Johnson! (I’ll give you that he had Dan Reeves, though.)
Wait… who?
Meanwhile, Shanahan’s great teams spent a full decade of absolute postseason futility without Elway.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
Elway was defiinitely Overrated
He looked better when they surronded him with better talent.
Though he did have a penchant for 4th Qtr comebacks
But IMO it was the running game (Terrell Davis) that took the Broncos through the Super Bowl years. Sorry the winning Super bowl years.
I think he may have very well been overrated for the first half of his career, but the second half of his career was easily, easily Hall of Fame caliber. He honestly did become great in the ’90s. And he actually did it before either Shanahan or Davis were on the team. The first year of his really great years was ’93, when Wade Phillips was coaching him and he was handing the ball off to Rod Bernstine.
Then in ’94 he was handing off to Leonard Russell (Wade Phillips still coaching) – another great season. He had a handful of very good season before 1993, too, but that was when he really, honestly started playing historically good football. A full two years before anybody generally credits the team lifting his stats up.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 8:21 AM PST up reply actions
And when I say that those ’93 and ’94 seasons were great, I mean that they were great individually for Elway. His teams were pretty crappy.
I don't know about that, to the groin.
by howtheyscored on Mar 10, 2010 8:22 AM PST up reply actions
Funny, don’t remember Smith playing for 5 years. He’s only had one full season as a starter and was injured for around 2.5 years. And you seem to knew Smith, sense you know that Smith doesn’t give his all during practice and gametime, which is a complete falsehood. What is really funny is that you use Cutler as a foil to Smith. The same whinny, immature Jay Cutler that cried his way out of Denver and threw a league leading 26 INT’s last year.
I survived the David Carr Press Conference Thread 3/06/2010
Credit to iaalexeeff
by Hoopers Judge on Mar 10, 2010 2:53 PM PST up reply actions
Potential!
hah.
No but really, i like putting Carr in there over Hill. He can get that ball deep to VD, and Crabs much better then Hill can.
We should get a Fan Post up for everyone to guess
Maybe with a poll
I for some reason am thinking #9
He sounds pretty pumped up to play in SF though.
I know in talking to just a handfull of the players in San Fran that they are Hungry!, I am starving, Let’s eat Go Niners
http://twitter.com/DavidCarr8
Crowded elevators smell different to midgets.
jersey number
Does anyone know what number Carr is going to wear? On Wikipedia, it lists is number as 8. That better not be true.
49er faithful since July 11, 1985
If I jujst read his twitter right
It would be 5 as his new number on the Niners
by snowweasel30 on Mar 11, 2010 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
Interesting Info on our new back up:
http://www.khsd.k12.ca.us/stockdale/DirDavidCarr/David.htm
Crowded elevators smell different to midgets.
I hope Nate Davis beats Carr out for the #2 spot
there is a very good chance that fragile Alex Smith will miss a couple games
If you hold it, we'll all wait for the THUD!!
Equation= 1,2,2,3,3 is a lot better than 1,1,2,3 in a deep draft, especially when your 1 nets you E berry.
Alex Smith is not a bust, he is a product of poor management and coaching.
That would be a big blow to the FO
They would have basically paid $2 million guaranteed to a No.3 QB.
If it does happen, then I hope Nate goes all the way up to No.1
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Mar 11, 2010 5:24 PM PST up reply actions
The same Fragile Alex Smith
That was the only QB in 9er’s history to take every snap in a season? The same one that I don’t recall missing a snap once he took over the starting role, last season?
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Mar 12, 2010 1:35 AM PST up reply actions
He didn’t come off the field in the Wildcat packages right?
If so, he didn’t miss a snap after he won the starting job.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Mar 14, 2010 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions
It's been a while
And not much has changed since I last posted on Ninersnation. It’s good to see all the familiar names. howtheyscored, drewk, rlott, bignerd, and to everyone else, this is me sayin’ what’s up from the bay.
Anyway, I find myself asking the same question (even though for different reasons). Why Carr? Are you kidding me? Dude’ll be 31 years old by the time season starts. Fans were complaining about a 28 year old Shaun Hill taking over. David Carr? Really? The team couldn’t have waited for Derek Anderson? At least with Anderson, we know he threw for 3,700 yards and 29 touchdowns to only 19 interceptions in 07. With exception to his “strong” arm, what do we know about Carr? So yeah, like…. he totally showed some stuff in his brief stint with the Giants. Clearly he has been reborn. How compelling…
I’m gonna keep this one short by saying, it was an awful decision to sign him. Somehow, I see Coach Singletary screwin’ this one up again by being indecisive and not knowing who to choose week-in and week-out as his starting quarterback.
Hey, you guys heard about the Raiders’ supposed interest in T.O.? How ‘bout this for another crazy signing by the 49ers front office: Sign T.O. to a one year contract in hopes that he’ll take all the attention away from the team’s awful QB situation. The result? Alice Smith will make major improvements when no one is looking, and he’ll “surprise” people. Right, like that’s ever going to happen…
Message to the 49ers’ front office:
Your fans deserve better. Let’s hope that there’s a line to protect Smith, and even David Carr should he take over (what with his guaranteed money and all). Remember! You have an obligation to draft well. So no more Kentwan Balmers over Desean Jacksons…. ’kay?
by Waiting4JoshMorgan on Mar 12, 2010 1:46 PM PST reply actions
I agree with most of what you're saying
except that,
[49er] fans deserve better.
Niner fans tend to be whiny, overly optimistic, and live too much in the 80s.
1.Brandon Graham 1.Charles Brown 2. Syd Thompson 3.Torell Troup 4.Andrew Quarless 5.John Jerry 6.Mike Kafka 6. Jake Sharp 7.Preston Parker
I was born in the 90s
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Mar 14, 2010 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions
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