Ted Ginn
by twolfe2 on Apr 14, 2010 12:52 PM PDT
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PrintFooch's Note: I've decided to close the comments on this thread. It's time to move past the argument that was going (unrelated to Ginn) and everybody needs to take a breath and move forward.
I just saw that the Dolphins might be interested in shopping Ted Ginn around. This makes sense as 1. They just picked up Brandon Marshall and 2. He was picked by a different regime. Ginn's return stats are as follows:
|
Kick Return |
|||||||||||
|
Year |
Team |
G |
Ret |
Yds |
Avg |
Lng |
TD |
20+ |
40+ |
FC |
FUM |
|
2009 |
16 |
52 |
1,296 |
24.9 |
101T |
2 |
34 |
4 |
0 |
1 |
|
|
2008 |
16 |
32 |
657 |
20.5 |
41 |
0 |
19 |
1 |
0 |
0 |
|
|
2007 |
16 |
63 |
1,433 |
22.7 |
52 |
0 |
39 |
2 |
0 |
0 |
|
|
TOTAL |
48 |
147 |
3,386 |
23.0 |
101 |
2 |
92 |
7 |
0 |
1 |
|
|
Punt Return |
|||||||||||
|
Year |
Team |
G |
Ret |
RetY |
Avg |
Lng |
TD |
20+ |
40+ |
FC |
FUM |
|
2009 |
16 |
5 |
28 |
5.6 |
12 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
1 |
|
|
2008 |
16 |
7 |
54 |
7.7 |
15 |
0 |
0 |
0 |
1 |
2 |
|
|
2007 |
16 |
24 |
230 |
9.6 |
87T |
1 |
2 |
1 |
15 |
3 |
|
|
TOTAL |
48 |
36 |
312 |
8.7 |
87 |
1 |
2 |
1 |
16 |
6 |
|
Ginn would be an immediate upgrade in the return game, and being as Marshall only went for a second round pick, and Holmes went for a 5th round, we could probably get him for a 3rd or 4th round pick. What do you think?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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Is this the guy who had 2 100 yard Tds in 1 game.
by manraj7 on Apr 14, 2010 1:30 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
As was noted Santonio Holmes went for a 5th rounder
this guy’s receiving skills correct or not are looked on as suspect so I’d say a 6th with a next year of 6th would do it.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Apr 14, 2010 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions
No higher than a 4th he does have an early first round contract from a few years back.
Plus the life expectency of a KR/PR, as far as productive years, is very small and typically dulls out after a few seasons. What’s the difference between him and Jacoby Ford, Vann, or Coker? We can get returnmen in the 5th round and after, so I would pass myself.
Let me see that Belly Roll........ - Major Payne
we know what we get in Ginn
He’s owed just over $1 million in 2010, $1.3 million in 2011, and $1.8 million in 2012 (which is a voidable year).
Jacoby Ford averaged 7.9 yards per punt return in college—which means he’ll most likely do less in the pros.
If you’re talking Lamarcus Coker he didn’t do any returns in college. If you’re referring to someone else you’ll need to be more specific.
LeRoy Vann averaged just over 20 yards per punt return in 2009, but that was in the MEAC. I’d hate to take a flier on him and then have it not pan out.
With GInn we can pick him up, renegotiate a deal, and have a proven commodity. If we can do it for just a 5th rounder that’s even sweeter.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
Jacoby Ford averaged 7.9 yards per punt return in college—which means he’ll most likely do less in the pros
Whatever Nostradamus… you can’t say that based off of college performance. Do you know how wacky that sounds?
really drew?
you freakin’ do it all the time.
I think that’s freakin’ hilarious that you’re trying to get on a high horse here on that subject. If you want me to refrain from saying things like that than I’d better not hear you label any potential draft play a bust from here on out.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
by smileyman on Apr 14, 2010 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
What are you talking about. Talk about ultimate delusion. Go find where I’ve said bust anywhere.
So you’re saying Ford is going to be a bust? On what basis? At least when I do it, I have legitimate backing of information. You are doing it with a magic crystal ball. Saying, “well his college avg is 7 yards, so that must mean his NFL avg is going to be 5”…. that to me is just lame. I have NEVER made predictions like that. If you think so, then go find something. Until then, leave it alone!
drew that is a strawman argument. he isn’t saying ford is going to bust, he’s just saying that going against better punters, kickers and special teamers Ford’s production could decline. We don’t know.
“Saying, "well his college avg is 7 yards, so that must mean his NFL avg is going to be 5"…. that to me is just lame. I have NEVER made predictions like that.”
neither did he. He didn’t even argue that Ford would bust, just that he’s an unknown quantity.
Also, you’ve said a lot of players will bust. I mean, like a lot. Trent Williams, Tim Tebow and Joe Haden. that’s two without even looking at any of your posts.
by hellaninersfan on Apr 14, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
lol, added tebow in there without changing two to three.
by hellaninersfan on Apr 14, 2010 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
It's very much on topic... not a strawman one bit.
Ginn’s production has declined on the other hand, if you are comparing the two. And declined significantly.
Very much a Strawman.
You changed what he was saying, and then began to dissect that argument. Even if it were related (which it has to be, or it would then be considered a red herring.)
Pardon me for being an Argument Nazi.
I will not pardon you.. and you're very much incorrect.
I commented on a portion of the comment that I disagreed with. Thats called an opinion brotha.
Brotha
You twisted a part of his comment, and then proceeded to argue against it. That is called a Strawman Argument.
You don't seem to understand what a Strawman is.
Or you may just refuse to admit you commited a fallacy. I understood the argument, and felt Smileyman had the reason. It is a safe assumption to make (the Jacoby Ford assumption.)
I understand just fine what it is
You are the one confused, obviously. It’s called a disagreement in opinion. Is it that hard, really? You can’t grasp the concept? It had nothing to do with changing something from the original point. It was very relative. Just cause you went to wiipedia and read what a strawman is doesn’t make you an expert or right. You refuse to admit you got called out and are flat out wrong in your accusation.
I don't need to tell you how you have committed it.
Hellaninersfan explain it quite well. But I’m done with this. You do not seem to follow logic very well, and this thread has become a bash-drew-poluza.
Did you just learn the term today or something?
And felt like testing the waters out with it? Just curious.
You do it all the time
in fact everybody who makes any predictions about a player’s success in the pros does it.
I think it’s a safe to assume that a player will not do quite as well in the pros because he’s facing stiffer competition than what he did in colelge.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
That is not nearly true.
Take a look at the Tony Romo’s, Brandon Marshall’s and Tom Brady’s of the league. It certainly doesn’t stop there. I think the statement is ridiculous. That’s all.
Joshua Cribbs
has a career avg of 11.1 and didn’t have close to that at Kent St. He wasn’t even drafted and look what he is doing.
and he's unique
just saying that with Ginn we have someone we know can do the job.
Of course you think 5th rounders are viable players and I consider them basically throw away picks, so it’s a difference of philosophy there
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
Go take a look at my Cream of the Crop post on 5th rounders and then say 5th rounders are throw away picks with a straight face agian. I bet you can’t do it.
And the only thing Ginn has proven
is that he is getting worse and worse each year. Commodity? Hardly.
The sample size on punts is too small to say that with any confidence, and it looks to me like his kick return YPR was the highest it had ever been with the largest sample in 2009. The stats do not back up your assertion.
I’ve been lurking and wanting to say something like this for a long time, so here goes: Drew, I find your comments very hard to read. You are by far, of all the moderators here, the most contemptuous of opinions that vary from yours. I frequently find myself thinking “well, he’s got a point, but he didn’t have to be such a richard when expressing it” when reading your stuff.
I would urge you to re-evaluate your posting style and try to recognize that everyone here has opinions, that everyone is entitled to theirs, and you are not necessarily right all the time, particularly when it comes something as speculative as player evaluation and projecting college talent into the pros. I think you bring a lot to the site, but your attitude and the way you treat others when they disagree with you could use a lot of improvement.
Again, I appreciate all the work you do in generating content for the site and I have really enjoyed the 100 in 100 series you’ve been doing.
Waiting for Giants and Niners to contend once more.
by dcp on Apr 14, 2010 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Punt Returns
2007 – his average was 9.6 with 24 returns
2009 – his average was 5.6 with 5 returns
So you are wrong on your assertion. The reason the sample size has shrunk, is because in ‘08 he started the decline. If you’re talking kick returns, then he has pretty much been average… nothing to write home about. Josh Morgan had 4 more yards for his average last year in that dept.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/8263
Also, as far as being a “richard” as you say, it only happens when I am getting that first. When someone writes a respectful, well-thought out response like you’ve done here, then you get a rational well thought out response in return. I don’t take kindly to disrespect on the computer and I certainly don’t in person either.
Small sample size
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Apr 14, 2010 7:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Drew, you and I have crossed swords a couple of times ...
and in most of our interactions, I can hardly say you’ve done anything I haven’t done.
That being said, there have been a few threads where you’ve been very “richard-like” to me, apparently carrying the grudge from our prior disagreements, so your statement that you only respond in kind is not true within that thread.
Like others, I appreciate a lot of your posts. But I think at a certain point you do have to realize that you keep having these negative interactions arising from disagreements, while the other moderators do not. It’s, perhaps, something worth thinking about. Whether or not you’re provoked, the other mods seem to have things devolve less when they are provoked.
"The education of Drew K"
Didn’t we do that already?
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Apr 14, 2010 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I've wanted to say the same.
Drew K, you are obviously a very passionate and dedicated person when it comes to football, but I have noticed the same thing that dcp has.
One of the defining features of Niners Nation is the high standard of decency which everyone is held to, and it is the responsibility of the moderators to maintain that standard.
Thank you for all the work you do for the site.
I just won’t comment to anything anymore if that will please everyone. I cannot refrain from certain opinions that I have and if I’m passionate about it, I can’t help that either. So from here on out, I’ll post stories and that’s it since everyone else here is so perfect in their commenting edicate.
Again with the petty pissing
Really Drew, this is one of the most juvenile responses ever. “Fine. I won’t say anything then because you won’t like it. Especially since you are SO perfect”
Nobody is saying you shouldn’t state your opinions. It’s more informed than 99% of the posters here. But at the same time, that’s no reason to be absolutely petty and biting with your remarks.
You are a moderator, and are thus held to a higher standard than regular posters.
I feel like I stay well within the guidelines. Just because I am different than the other mods doesn’t equal I need to conform and be exactly like them.
If Fooch has a problem with things I am saying, he usually will tell me himself. I don’t need it from the peanut gallery. If I am staying within the rules in which I agreed to, then that should suffice, dontcha think?
sorry...
for the interruptions from the peanut gallery….
these are your own words…
by thatguywiththebeardandthebanjo on Apr 15, 2010 1:08 AM PDT up reply actions
You do the same then.
Next time you see a comment you do not like, say nothing. Heck, following that logic, there wouldn’t be a single forum on the internet!
by mr. instigator on Apr 15, 2010 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions
yes cuz everyone nails a starter with a fifth...
year by year for the best of that round is far different then the reality of picking in the 5th….
just sayin….
by thatguywiththebeardandthebanjo on Apr 15, 2010 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions
But were arguing over a guy (ted ginn ) who people felt was going 2 be a bust on his draft-day
and almost everybody felt miami over-reached 4 him, and that hidden myth about he’s been in the NFL so he knows how it works yea thats good in some cases but bad in others.You can’t always want 2 replace young and in-exsperienced with older exsperience because that youngen could end up being a MONSTER in the NFL lol.On that i think ginn is ,was ,and always will be a bust 2 some-people and i’m one of them.
I know what we get with ginn 2 a bum peroid ,look his career went in the dumps when he
got injured trying 2 clown after a very good kick return in major bowl game and from there he hasn’t done SQUA-DUCSH! And he’s not that exsplosive on STs either i know this is the time people get fired and hired but why is it when these bum players from other teams get let go or out there 4 dirt cheap do we be like ‘’ he would be good 4 us ’’ no no no he’s a BUM period end of story.If were going 2 be or won’t 2 be a upper-teir team we can’t be hot 4 other teams garbage i uderstand having dept and all that crap but i would stack young talent and build them up then take over-the-hill guys yea there more exp thats true but they can’t or they body can’t keep up with this long ride and play at high level.
And i know ginn is still young but ki have not seen anything that warrants the niner taking a look at him
he’s skinny can get hurt like a tea-cup-poodle ,he doesn’t run routes good at all theres nothing at all there 4 me 2 see us even whispering his name espicially with the draft this close let buffalo or cleveland grab that bum.
What about kr/pr decline, most of them do not have good return careers that last past 4-6 seasons
So half of what he will bring to the table is gone and his hands are suspect.
I want the best player in the draft.
"The thing I do before every season is pretty much go find the worst thing that's said about me," Berry said at the NFL Scouting Combine. "Whenever someone has something negative to say about me, I post it up in my bathroom. I look at it every day when I brush my teeth."
If those contract numbers are correct
and he can be had for a 4th or maybe even a 5th rounder, I say grab him.
If he’s any good, not only have we found ourselves a decent return man at a relatively reasonable price, we can also taunt the raiders with getting a better version of DHB for a lot less money.
If he isn’t, cut him, and we’re not on the hook for anything – no money, no cap space.
I’m absolutely willing to wager a 5th or maybe even 4th rounder. It’s not more of a gamble than any rookie you could draft with that pick – in fact, it’s less of a gamble IMHO.
I think I read they wanted a 5th rounder
But I couldn’t find the link so I’m probably wrong. Anyway, I’d easily give up a 4th rounder for him.
Bowker, Denker, and Holmker.
by DubsFanByTheZoo on Apr 14, 2010 2:02 PM PDT reply actions
this is what I heard as well on NFL network...
Doesnt that make it worth it? We get a return guy and possible third reciever…..
by thatguywiththebeardandthebanjo on Apr 14, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Really
Not even American Cheese, Mayo and some wonderbread? I would throw that out there…
by thatguywiththebeardandthebanjo on Apr 14, 2010 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions
4th or 5th rounder??
Get Him!!
I want the best player in the draft.
"The thing I do before every season is pretty much go find the worst thing that's said about me," Berry said at the NFL Scouting Combine. "Whenever someone has something negative to say about me, I post it up in my bathroom. I look at it every day when I brush my teeth."
What's a waste Drew?
4th or 5th rounder is a waste, how?
I want the best player in the draft.
"The thing I do before every season is pretty much go find the worst thing that's said about me," Berry said at the NFL Scouting Combine. "Whenever someone has something negative to say about me, I post it up in my bathroom. I look at it every day when I brush my teeth."
His punt return ability and average (which is all he's good for)
has continued to plummit and fall. He isn’t good at all. Not good enough to consider IMO. But I think the Niners are done in free agency.
Because he's a proven commodity
and if you draft a guy in the 5th round he might not even make the team.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
Since his rookie year his average has dropped by 4 entire yards. That is very significant. Significant enough for me to feel very justified in saying a firm NO THANKS!
and we also get 3 fewer years out of him, which is significant with return men, who don’t have very long careers. I’d rather draft people in the 5-7th.
by hellaninersfan on Apr 14, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions
He hasn't had enough attempts since his rookie year
to really tell what he’ll do.
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
I wouldn't give miami'' the ends of the bread that my son takes off before he eats his sandwiches '' for him
and he throws that 2 my dog chewy sometimes lol.
Smileyman not 2 try a double team on you but you keep saying he's a (proven commodity) but what has he proven
that he can pick-up a big-check because as football wise he hasn’t done anything and i would take a chance on a un-proven commodity that is young and get coached-up and you know he has the ability 2 be good.Or you could grab a proven player who has never lived up 2 the abilty he showed in college why waist the time on a older player who still haven’t showed the promise or a young hungry player who’s ready 2 show the world why they shouldn’t messed up by not picking him
He's proven that if he's given the chance he can be a good punt returner
he barely touched the ball the last two years as a punt returner, but his rookie year he was great on punt returns.
He’s also a great kick returner, and I’d rather use him for KR than risk a starter like Josh Morgan
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
Smiley youre my man 100 gran and all i just can't roll with you with you on this
one plus 2 me ginn has more of a straight-line speed he’s not a scat type of STeamer. I don’t knooow smiley i just don’t want the kid ‘’’ i wish him well i really do ‘’ if this draft didn’t have some of the play-makers they have i might be on board ‘’’ might ‘’ BUT IT DOES have the play-makers out-there and ’’ i want that youngen ‘’’.I want that dude holding a 49er niner jersey smiling lol saying the niners or one of those up-and-coming teams i’m happy i’m going there don’t you want that 2 ??
Using 12 returns in 2 years as proof of decline doesn't seem conclusive
However the 6 fumbles in three years is enough for me to tap out.
Absolutely NO
hes got a 1st round receiver contract hes playing under. not even worth having him on team.
I think Jason Hill has way more upside than Ginn Jr.
There is no room for him on our roster. This would be like picking up Spurlock all over again.
has more upside as a WR but not as a returner.
I want the best player in the draft.
"The thing I do before every season is pretty much go find the worst thing that's said about me," Berry said at the NFL Scouting Combine. "Whenever someone has something negative to say about me, I post it up in my bathroom. I look at it every day when I brush my teeth."
A 5th or 6th could also be....
Bear Pascoe, Thomas Clayton, Rasheed Marshall, Derrick Johnson, Aaron Walker, Mark Anelli, Menson Holloway, John Milem, or Tyrone Hopson.
I get the point you’re trying to make, but I couldn’t help throwing out some late round gems.
by David Fucillo on Apr 14, 2010 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well hopefully when you draft a guy, you’re drafting him to be the Michael Turner and not the Thomas Clayton… I would hope that would be the mind-set.
Of course that's the mindset.
The point is, the chances of a 5th or 6th rounder turning out to be a pro-bowler are much smaller than a 1st or 2nd.
by mr. instigator on Apr 15, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually..
we are paying Josh Morgan way more to sit on the bench…15 mil five years with 5mil and change guaranteed… cut Morgan and upgrade… He will be the perfect fit to our Smashmouth/Wildcat/Spread highbrid…. Jimmy Ray is Our Future!!!!!
by thatguywiththebeardandthebanjo on Apr 14, 2010 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok
At first I wasn’t sure on Ginn. After researching his production relative to the league, he’s not worth acquiring. At KR/PR where I imagined he’d be the biggest help, he’s been below average every year. With that said, I’d rather try for an unknown quantity in the draft, that a guy who really hasn’t been all that great.
I don't see how adding Ginn would significantly help the 49ers
He has no upside and I question his work ethic (he’s gotten worse every year).
I’d rather keep that 4th/5th and roll the dice on a guy like J. Ford or T. Holliday.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Hmmm Holiday
If I could have that with a side of please no Spiller in the first I would say that is dandy…. you dont waste a 13th or 17th on a third down back/return man…
by thatguywiththebeardandthebanjo on Apr 15, 2010 1:13 AM PDT up reply actions
5th or a 6th rounder
nothing more. He’s not a world beater in the return department, but he’s better than what the 49ers have. For every gem you can name in round 5 or 6, there are 10 turds.
by Andrew Davidson on Apr 14, 2010 8:09 PM PDT reply actions
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