What do you think of Dashon Goldson?
by Brendan Scolari on Apr 6, 2010 11:38 PM PDT
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PrintI made this fanpost because I wanted to see what people here at NN think of Dashon Goldson, and hopefully with an open forum of discussion we can come to a conclusion. Goldson seems to be a bit of a polarizing player. I've heard an seen opinions of his ability ranging from, "He's an up and coming stud who we need to get locked up to an extension right now" to, " He was a huge hole in coverage and the Niners need to find a replacement immediately", which is a much wider range of opinions than you here with most players.
What piques my interest most when it comes to Goldson is his terrible rating at Pro Football Focus. Out of the 86 safeites who played at least 25% of their teams' snaps, PFF rates Goldson 82nd (meaning he was the 6th worse safety in the NFL among qualifying players). This is just one source of data of course, and because their methods are not completely transparent I think some skepticism is fair, but such a terrible opinion of Goldson's play from a seemingly unbiased source does merit more investigation. A further look shows that Goldson has a positive rating against the run (+2.4, which would rank him 22nd amongst qualifiers) but he actually has the worst pass coverage rating of any safety in the NFL (-14.8). While I do think the deep pass was a problem for the Niners defense all year, it was still surprising to see Goldson this low.
His pass coverage stats do not seem to back up such a low rating. he was thrown at 52 times (5th among safeties) which is a lot, but also played the 2nd most snaps of any safety, which makes the plethora of attempts a bit less alarming. The completion percentage on passes thrown at Goldson was 65.5%, which was only the 32nd highest among safeties. His YPA (12.9) and QB rating (78.8) on passes thrown at him were both middle of the pack, ranking 33rd and 40th respectively. The one thing I did find was that Goldson had 13 missed tackles, 6th most among safeties, and 9 of those came on passing plays, so perhaps that drove his ranking way down. PFF wrote articles about each team's biggest offeseason need after the season ended, and for the Niners they picked safety because of Goldson (and Michael Lewis') poor pass coverage ratings, and here's wat they said about Goldson):
...Most disastrous is the safety pairing of Dashon Goldson and Michael Lewis. Both were strong in run defense but lacking in coverage last season. Goldson in particular failed to grasp the chance he was given to entrench himself as a starter. Giving him a second season while hoping for improvement would be very risky. He was among the leaders in missed tackles at the safety position with 13 (tied with Louis Delmas and Laron Landry for sixth-most). Nine of those came on pass plays, interestingly enough. Goldson may improve, but his performance in 2009 may have been too poor to risk a repeat performance when there are options out there to provide immediate upgrade.
The 49ers got their other starting safety, Lewis, from a team in the state of Pennsylvania and until 2009 had received strong returns from the former Eagle. The 49ers will need to once again analyze the free agent class for upgrades at the safety position...
This quite clearly doesn't jive with many Niners fans' opinions of Lewis, as it seems many think he's an up an coming starter. I wonder how much of that has to do with Goldson's 4 interceptions this year. While he certainly deserves credit for getting them, stats with such small sample sizes tend to have a lot of variance from year to yaer, and I'm not sure if Goldson deserves the ball-hawk label that I've heard some tag him with after just one year. However, I do also think there are some people who side with PFF to some extent because of the prevalence of Eric Berry in mock drafts here. If Berry was drafted by the Niners he would be replacing Goldson, although Goldson could potentially slide over and play strong safety instead of Michael Lewis. He did have a lot of missed tackles but since most of those were on passing plays, perhaps he just has a tougher time with smaller, quicker receivers rather than running backs.
Anyway, I just wanted to try to get a clearer grasp on what people think Goldson's abilities are. Is he a liability or an asset right now? Does he still have lots of untapped potential or is he just not really good enough to be a starter in the NFL? If he can't start at free safety, would you consider him a potential starter at strong safety or is Michael Lewis (or someone else) likely to be better than him for the forseeable future?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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i wouldnt mind drafting a shut down corner in this years draft move Nate clements to FS and move Goldson to SS what do you guys think?
thats three players learning new positions in the secondary.
by hellaninersfan on Apr 7, 2010 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Goldson wasn’t the only player on that defense who had tackling problems. I remember almost every game being incensed at defenders trying to arm tackle guys and offensive players slipping out of incredibly poor tackles.
Goldson’s poor performance against the pass could be attributed to Michael Lewis being a huge liability in coverage and Goldson basically being the only deep pass defender. Upgrading the SS position whether it’s drafting someone there or Goldson taking that role would only help Goldson’s performance.
I survived the David Carr Press Conference Thread 3/06/2010
Credit to iaalexeeff
Also surviving member of the underwhelming Jed York Conference Thread 3/22/2010
Eat Shitake!
The problem with the year long analysis was Goldson was subpar the 1st half of the season, started to get a grasp of things late than began to become a difference maker in a few games towards the end.
Also add I’m not a big fan of player of ratings, especially on defense. Two guys can play the same position while even playing the same team can have a complete different list of assignments. I don’t trust those indexes for any kind of performance/talent evaluation of a player.
Goldson isn’t perfect. He is a bit like Darren Sharper where he will either be the hero or the goat of the game. Lewis/Roman are more the concern because they are suppose to be stable, consistent, dependable safety on the field but at times get absolutely abused. Unlike Goldson, they won’t produce that spectacular play to make up for the massive mistake.
I Think
Dashon should be our starting Strong Safety. The guy was phenomenal at the end of last year when coming up to the line to make plays. I feel like hes a guy who could play the bob sanders role in a defense. Drafting Earl Thomas or Eric Berry would be solid as we could put them in FS and move Dashon over.
He improved a lot as the year went on
Anyone who didn’t take a game-by-game approach to rating him wouldn’t know that. You also have to watch things the stat line doesn’t show too. I think he could be a good FS but also I think he could be a good SS. Lewis, however, is good only in run support.
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
Goldson
He made drastic improvements as the season progressed and it could clearly be seen. However, I’m of the mindset that he should be moved over to SS. I feel he’s much better in run support and playing close to the line; however, he does at least have some ball skills which can improve and become more prominent.
I think, with the clamor for Atogwe, if we were to sign a quality FS, then Goldson should be moved to SS immediately. Then you can cut Lewis since he’s a liability. Goldson’s tackling will easily improve when Sing rips him one for using the missle technique. Paired with a good FS, our secondary can quickly become a strength.
As for the ratings and rankings, it’s a bunch or BS. Yes, Goldson missed some tackles and gave up some big plays, but he also made some plays when it really counted. There’s absolutely no way he should be sent to the bench or let go.
Essentially this was Goldson’s rookie season. He was given a chance and played how a rookie would. After a couple of games his play improved and so did the number of interceptions and big hits not to mention key stops. He’s a beast and versatile to play either S positions.
We also have to consider the development of Reggie Smith and Curtis Taylor. If Reggie Smith is ready he can take over the FS position and move Goldson to SS. If Taylor improves than he would be considered at SS keeping Goldson at FS.
If we do draft a Safety these would be the best choices:
Eric Berry, Earl Thomas,Taylor Mays, Myron Rolle, Morgan Burnett, Nathaniel Allen,
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
Can I ask...
why everyone seems to think Reggie Smith is the free safety? Every depth chart I’ve seen from last year and the most recent from OTA’s has Smith behind Lewis at SS and Curtis Taylor at FS.
because he was a CB in college
so it seems natural he’d use his coverage skills as a FS and that he wouldn’t be a big run-stuffing SS.
That’s my guess.
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
That I know and understand...
Hell, some sites still list his position as a CB rather than safety. Everyone seems to have written off Taylor and honestly, they look like they’re on about the same ground at this point.
I know Smith has (supposed) good range and he does only play sparingly, but if we don’t draft a safety to challenge both of them this year or a proven starter, he has a lot to prove. It’s year three and that’s when Goldson stepped on the field on looked pretty good.
seems poised
said he has been studying and working hard, wants to contribute more…if his mind is right and he’s working hard…chances are there will be some camp battling and he may end up seeing some playing time. So much can happen between now and then but it seems like the time is right for him to make his play if he wants to get into the lineup.
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
Sounds good
I still think the Niners should grab a safety in the draft and have them compete for time. Lewis is all but finished, and he might not even make it to the regular season without getting a concussion.
Question is, do you grab a safety high and give up on Smith before he starts or do you grab a later round guy and hope he can provide depth and challenge in a few years. Smith was a 3rd round guy, so you’d hope he can be a starter at some point.
by 9thevolution on Apr 7, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I think it depends on the Tackle taken
if you don’t get a Tackle in the 1st cause the good ones are gone and you can’t trade down…I think taking a shot at Earl Thomas isn’t a heinous idea. Otherwise if you get the Tackle in the 1st, I think you take a Nate Allen/Morgan Burnett in the 2nd. We have two young Safeties on the bench now and Lewis is about to be gone…so we’d still have 3 safeties besides Goldson.
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
I completely agree....
except I wouldn’t take the shot at Thomas in the 1st. I’d look to fix other positions in the first (CB, Pass Rush), or if really necessary, take Mays over Thomas. I’m just not a fan of Thomas and see him as another Michael Huff (who we could probably get for a 4th round pick).
If I didn’t take the tackle in the first, then you have to look there in the 2nd and that cuts out those 2nd round safety options. Which means you’re dropping to the 3rd or 4th for safety (Rolle, R. Jones, Wright) and Smith gets thrown into the fire and you hope for the best. I wouldn’t want a rookie 4th round pick starting in the secondary.
by 9thevolution on Apr 7, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah that's pretty much what I was left thinking when I worked on my mock today...
I was thinking..well I could try and get Saffold which isn’t looking too sure about now and then be screwed with getting Allen, or Burnett or even perhaps R. Jones ..etc. So I said let’s just get us a good tackle at least good enough for right and then move on so I could then freely take Allen or Burnett in the second and have OT, CB, and S set up before even entering the third round.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Apr 7, 2010 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd only consider Bulaga as a 1st round tackle option.
I just don’t like anyone else in the 1st round including Saffold who might be moving up into the last few picks of round 1. If Bulaga is the pick at #13, I would hope they trade back in the 1st and grab a extra pick or two. This draft could stack our roster for a while to come.
i will pee in my pants
and take a picture
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
really?
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Apr 8, 2010 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions
really
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
Best of luck with that.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on Apr 8, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
no, not really
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
Yeah I'm just not so sure of trade back possibilities so can't consider that a given
To me an RT is an imperative and I’m worried about having to reach just to get one. Maybe I’m not having enough faith in this crop of tackles (I do kinda like Wang but more at OG than OT at least to start).
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Apr 7, 2010 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions
RT is definitely imperitive...
I just don’t want any of the 1st round graded ones except Bulaga. If he’s not there, I would hope they wait til the 2nd round to get one. If they do get him, I wouldn’t be opposed to them actively trying to trade back so they can get some extra picks. It’s not guaranteed, but you might as well shop the pick if there’s value.
the CB thing comes to mind
I agree with Tre9er, can’t see him as the run stuffing S. Also experience he played FS a couple of games in preseason while Taylor stepped in for a short time in SS but was later replaced by Roman.
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
wasn't taylor hurt too
when Lewis had to miss time with the concussions last year? I think Taylor had a groin strain or something and couldn’t fill in?
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
I forget, you might be right… all I know is Roman has been one of the worst safeties on a 49er roster.
Joe and Steve were under the same system for years... don't expect Smith to be super so soon.
absolutely
he’s a UFA i believe, isn’t he? I really hope he’s not coming back.
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
He shouldn't be...
unless the Niners get no safety help and Lewis goes down.
by 9thevolution on Apr 7, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Hope you're right
Personally, I think Goldson would be better suited for SS. He gave up too many plays deep last year. He got better as the season progressed, but having him drop into intermediate coverage and playing run support seems like a much better fit for him.
by 9thevolution on Apr 7, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
9thevo..
… during OTAs, someone (don’t remember for sure who, but I think it was one of the Matts (either Maiocco or Barrows)) posted the working depth chart for those who attended. I copied it down, and it had Smith at FS and Taylor at SS.
Re Taylor (6-2, 208#, entering his 2nd NFL season but still only 24 yo) and
Smith (6-1, 200#, entering his 3rd NFL season but still only 23 yo):
I’ve spent my entire life working with kids, and I have 100% belief and confidence in the ability of youngsters, when properly motivated, to grow and improve. I’m excited to see the strides made by these two, hoping that they’ll clear the hurdle to become contributors.
Should we still draft a safety? If Berry (doubtful) or Earl Thomas (hopeful) falls to us, ABSOLUTELY. In the pass-happy NFL, you can’t have too many quality DBs (but I hope we would pass on Mays… IMHO he’s a “workout wonder” lacking the basic football instinct necessary to ever become a top-notch safety, which is why he’s always being described as a NOT being a playmaker— and instincts CAN’T be “coached up”)
After all was said and done, a lot more got said than done.
SS vs. FS
The information you’ve been provided with is incorrect. It should be the other way around with Smith at SS and Taylor at FS.
Smith: I watched the kid all three years he played at OU (I am a die-hard Sooners fan), and he has got a great game and awesome skill. His problem has been his health. If he can manage to stay healthy, the ceiling is very high for him.
Taylor: He was drafted to be a back up. I believe we got him in the 7th? Possibly 6th, I can’t recall exactly and I don’t really have the extra time to look it up. In anycase, he could be a very solid back up I think… which is pretty much why we got him; to play special teams and back up Goldson. Presto-whammo, mission accomplished depending on how well he does on ST’s this year.
While I agree with the concept “you can never have too many good DB’s”, the same can be said for 90% of the positions in football. If we ended up with Berry, I’d be very happy, as I am sure many of us would be, but it’s not a highly probable scenario. I can say without flinching, that I wouldn’t be disappointed if we didn’t select a DB in the 1st Round. I have faith that our Coaching Staff and F.O. will make the right decisions as they have seemingly been doing the past few years. The 2004 and 2009 Season were basically night and day. There is plenty of reason for hope and optimism… even if we don’t land one of the dynamic 1st round defensive back prospects.
Taylor 7th
But Drew, don’t you think since Smith played CB in college that his cover skills would be more useful as a FS? Is he a big run stuffer? Can he cover a TE? I don’t know, you watched him so let me know.
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
+1
If Reggie Smith is ready he can take over the FS position and move Goldson to SS.
I’d still would draft a mid-round safety prospect though, just in case Reggie Smith has the chronic injury bug
Robert Johnson is someone that can play both S positions and for some reason he has gone under the radar(maybe because he’s not a Rhode Scholar?) but I believe he can become a real solid starter at the next level
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_ourKzKOnY
1.Brandon Graham 1.Charles Brown 2. Syd Thompson 3.Torell Troup 4.Robert Johnson 5.Andrew Quarless 6.Mike Kafka 6.Chris Scott 7.Preston Parker
I wouldn't care who it is, safety is an absolute must at some point....
Whether it’s FA (Atogwe) or through the draft, we need to add a replacement for Lewis.
by 9thevolution on Apr 7, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
re:
Essentially this was Goldson’s rookie season. He was given a chance and played how a rookie would. After a couple of games his play improved and so did the number of interceptions and big hits not to mention key stops. He’s a beast and versatile to play either S positions.
It was not at all his rookie season, it was his 3rd year, he’s had two previous years to develop. If he really was a rookie (two years younger and with that time to develop and get better) we could feel a lot better about his play.
by Brendan Scolari on Apr 7, 2010 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Florida Danny take on Goldson
Go down to #5 in this link. It’s not the be-all, end-all, but he is quite solid when team’s are passing.
by David Fucillo on Apr 7, 2010 8:18 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't see how that's relevant at all
Making a lot of tackles on completed passes is not a good thing. That means teams are completing a lot of passes on you (which backs up the PFF stat that Goldson was 3rd in targets). That’s a bad sign, you do not want your safeties to be making a lot of tackles after completions.
by Brendan Scolari on Apr 7, 2010 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions
You have to understand the defense to know whether it’s a bad sign. The 49ers love to play a shell coverage on 3rd and long. They force the offense to check down to the underneath route than rally up and tackle. By design the safety is suppose to accumulate a lot of tackles over the middle against the RB, TE or slot WR.
Yup
this is why Lewis has had almost 100 tackles a season since coming to San Francisco and it’s why Goldson had 94 this year
Member of the legendary David Carr thread, 6 March 2010
not to mention
the in the box play. Our safeties are taught to diagnose quickly and one of them is the “plugger” who jumps a run play and comes down to lay the wood.
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
Goldson was the best FS in the NFC West last year.
Many believed that Dashon had a better year than AZ Adrian Wilson (who just singed a huge deal). It is true that Goldson started the season out slowly but came on very strong at the end of the season. He also was a wrecking ball in the 2nd AZ game, picking off Warner and causing 2 FF. Don’t forget the TD he took away from Fitzgerald, falling down in the endzone and ripping the ball out of his hands. This was his first year as a starter and he has good upside and will only get better.
our whole defense was insane for that Monday night Arizona game
I don’t know what Sing or Manusky told them but they were possessed that night.
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
Goldson is great
The two other safeties who missed as many tackles as Goldson (Louis Delmas and Laron Landry) are both good young safeties who too often go for the big hit therefore more missed tackles. Don’t believe what this guy said. I’ve been waiting for him to start since we drafted him.
Not on the poll
He’s an OK Free Safety that has shown improvement and I’d like to give him a chance to continue to play for the 49ers as he has a lot of upside.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
If we Draft a FS in the first
Goldson slides to SS where he should be.
If not, the only way we get a starting FS in the 2nd is Nate Allen.
What about moving T. Brown to FS?
I know we can’t move Clements because he gets paid too much for a FS so we are in a wierd situation.
For all of these reasons I don’t see us taking a DB AT ALL in the 1st round.
No on T Brown, we may as well draft Earl Thomas, he is a better tackler than Brown.
I do see us taking a DB in the first round, possibly S or CB.
Good post...
Well thought out and info provided to make a true decision. I personally think only 4 years is a tad short amount of time to say clearly that the guy just can’t cut it. however, missed tackles on pass plays and only 4 INT’s for a career mark, don’t make him the next Ronnie Lott either.
IMO, as of right now, he is exactly what his stats say he is…..a mediocre safety, who could go either way. A full blown bust, or another Ed Reed in the making. I personnaly believe the Niners should draft another safety somewhere in the draft. If for no other reason then to have a back up plan in the “unlikely event”, Goldson doesn’t work out.
K.C.Edwards -AKA- "THE" DarkkStarr
The thing is. . .
all those missed tackles seem pretty reasonable to me, considering he was SECOND on our team in total tackles behind Bam-Bam. It’s not a great thing, but it leads to a lot of questions to why he was making so many tackles.
I think our main secondary issue is not in our coverage but rather in how long our defense has to stay on the field and the lack of pass rush. Our offense was not getting it done which is why so many attempts were made against our defense. And the pass rush was improving towards the end and should improve a lot next year.
i mean, we did hold the colts to 19 points when we played them, and their only pass for a touchdown was by their running back. Manning had 0 touchdowns for the day.
I thought we stayed on the field due to our lack of coverage.
The PR does need time as well as the db’s needing the QB to not have time. It’s goes hand in hand. What I seen was a lot of quick routes and no pressure when we used the Nickel. I don’t know what position the problem lies, but I like our 3-4 defense, just not the Nickel
Let me see that Belly Roll........ - Major Payne
yeah, i agree with the nickel thing.
but the whole thing is a loop. how i see it (and the reason why i want a “smash mouth, singletary” offense) is if we can establish the run and keep the offense on the field, our defense will do significantly better because they wont be as tired. It looked to me like our defense would have great play after play, but eventually would let one slip (which was usually some kind of long pass). The issue seems to be how many times the opposing offense gets to throw at us, not so much the individual players.
Do i think we need a star cb? yes. Do i think we need another safety to replace or backup Lewis? Probably. I just really like what i saw at the end of the year.
Nickel pass rush was a problem
Brooks improved that by coming in and playing DE, but other than Smith we weren’t getting much rush. McDonald has to improve, so does Balmer…or else we need better players there or a 3-down DL to eventually replace Franklin if he goes.
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
I read on his twitter account that he said the FS and SS were similar in our D.
is the SS and FS spot simliar in your 3-4 scheme?<Yah cuz we dnt run wit motion responsiblity jus switch so I am SS 2
Do you perfer FS or SS? If SF picks up like an Earl Thomas, would you mind a switch to SS?<No I wudnt
http://twitter.com/thehawk38 (they were asked march 5th and 6th)
Go 49ers
excellent stuff
thank you. They are playing halves. This is all the more reason to replace Lewis. What “The Hawk” said above means that if a motioning 3rd WR or TE (depending on formation) comes to Lewis side of the field, he is now Lewis’ responsibility. Same thing if one safety is dropping into the box…if there is motion or the formation changes strong sides, Lewis could be left as the deep safety. I’m sure they try to line up and anticipate as much as possible so Lewis’ coverage deficiencies are not exploited, but ultimately it’s a bad situation waiting to happen.
"If I were to walk down a dark alley in a bad part of town, I'd want Ray Brown with me. And if I were to have a nice dinner at a fine restaurant, I'd want Ray Brown with me." The Late Great McKittrick
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