The NFL's 30% Rule and a Vernon Davis contract extension
A week or so ago, Tre9er posted a FanShot linking to a National Football Post article that was discussing something called the 30% rule in the expired collective bargaining agreement. The rule (found in Article XXIV, section 8(b)) states that:
"No NFL Player Contract entered into in a Capped Year and extending into the Final League Year or beyond may provide for an annual increase in Salary, excluding any amount attributable to a signing bonus ... of more than 30% of the Salary provided for in the Final Capped Year, per year, either in the Final League Year or in any subsequent League Year covered by the Player Contract."
So basically, if the 2009 salary is $2M, the maximum available in 2010 is $2.6M, in 2011 it’s $3.2M, and so forth. In the earlier FanShot discussion, smileyman put together some mocked up salary numbers adding 30% of each subsequent salary. In the sources I've seen since, it reads as though it's only adding 30% of the year 2009 salary. I tweeted J.I. Halsell (writes for FO, used to be a cap analyst for the Redskins) and he said it's 30% of 2009, so we'll go with that info..
I'm bringing this up again for a few reasons. First, it's an important subject for 49ers fans because Vernon Davis is a free agent after 2010, and the 49ers have other guys coming up in 2011 and beyond (notably Patrick Willis) that they likely want to extend as soon as possible. Second, FanShots (even those moved to the front page), don't always get a lot of comments, so this is something I wanted to expand on a bit more. And third, I found another interesting article that provides a somewhat analogous situation and some additional insight on the subject.
More after the jump...
The primary option for circumventing the 30% rule is loading up the signing bonus in a contract. Looking at Vernon Davis, his 2009 salary was $1.44 million. That means, if he signed a 6-year extension (the length of Brent Celek's extension) it appears as though his annual salaries could increase no more than $432,000 per year (30% of his $1.44M). One question I have on that is whether it's only 30% of the 2009 salary, or if it's 30% of the subsequent salary. It wouldn't be a whole lot, but it would compound it a little bit.
If it's the former, then a 6-year deal would include total salaries of $17,712,000. Last December, Brent Celek signed an 8-year extension worth $34 million. Brent Celek is a very solid tight end, but as we discussed back then, I think Davis is better and will likely be looking for a better deal. Back in early 2008, Dallas Clark signed a six year extension worth $36 million. While we could use that as a baseline, let's round up and say Davis wants six years worth $42 million (just for argument's sake and inflation). If that's the case, the 49ers would be looking at bonuses of $24,288,000. Here are the year-by-year numbers for clarification:
2010: $1,872,000
2011: $2,304,000
2012: $2,736,000
2013: $3,168,000
2014: $3,600,000
2015: $4,032,000
As I mentioned before the jump, I based the increases on 30% of his 2009 salary and not 30% of each subsequent season.
Suffice to say, that's a crapload of money to be guaranteeing Davis. Of course, NFL teams do it all the time with their draft picks, and the 49ers will likely be looking at such guaranteed money in signing Anthony Davis and Mike Iupati. The 49ers are a profitable franchise, but they would be looking at a whole lot of up-front cash this year if they wanted to make sure Davis remained under their control for the foreseeable future.
Earlier I mentioned another article on the topic. Over at the Steelers Scouts.com site, Ian Whetstone (a solid cap commentator on the Internet) wrote about Pittsburgh's own issues in this area with Lamarr Woodley. The Steelers OLB is coming off his second straight 12 sack season and has been an all around impressive performer. The problem is that his rookie deal paid him $460,000 in 2009 (he was a mid-second round pick). Given such a low salary number, the necessary signing bonus money would be simply outrageous (in the neighborhood of $50 million).
Given the uncertain labor future of the NFL, the issues of restricted free agency and franchise tags remain up in the air. Ian makes the point that short term extensions might be the answer. Whether a player takes it or not would seem to depend in part on how badly or not he wants to stay in his current city. If Vernon Davis really wants to remain with the 49ers, but still wants the big money, maybe he takes 1-year deal to get into the new collective bargaining agreement and then get his big money?
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I think we'll have a new CBA by the end of next year
too much of a win-win thing for the owners and players not to come to some sort of agreemtn
I was right, you were wrong.
I also think teams are hesitant about doing too many extensions
for fear of a possible lockout/strike in 2011. You don’t want to be paying millions of dollars in guaranteed money if there’s a work stoppage.
I was right, you were wrong.
lockout
Remember though that the 49ers are guaranteed TV money even if 2011 doesn’t happen. Obviously they don’t want to kill the golden goose, but they’ve got a little bit less incentive than the players to get a deal done.
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure
but they’re not going to want to put that windfall into player salaries which they would have to do with any guaranteed funds.
I have to think that the networks would not be happy if there was no football in 2011. Wonder what legal recourse they have.
I was right, you were wrong.
tv
I’m amazed they agreed to any kind of deal guaranteeing money to the owners even if no football.
And if there is a lockout, that’s their war chest until a new CBA is figured out.
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
lockout
At the same time, I’d like to think they’re not so stupid as to go to a lockout. The NFL is a license to print money, so why shoot yourself in the foot?
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I heard on NFL network a while back
They will get a check from the TV deal, but it would not be strictly a payment, but an advance that would latter be removed from future money if there were no games played.
that makes sense
Either way the owners would have some financial leverage over the players to hold out for a better deal for them.
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Didn’t you also think that 2010 wouldn’t be an uncapped year?
I think this situation is going to get really ugly.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on May 3, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I know it's a huge part of the NFL
but I try not to worry about the money… even though I know that it is incredibly naive to do so.
I just think Vernon has grown so much and matured thanks to Singletary that he’d have a hard time signing with a new time. But boatloads of cash can really test your loyalty.
Let’s just hope Paraag and the Yorks work out whatever details to keep our good guys!
(Also, there’s a good chance I will die if there’s no NFL in 2011)
NFL
If there was no football in 2011, I don’t what I’d do. It wouldn’t be pretty.
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Football is by far my favorite sport
I would be devastated if there weren’t any in 2011
I was right, you were wrong.
There will still be football
Some players won’t side with the NFLPAA (third-stringers) and the NFL will find bodies to put on the field.
It won’t be good quality, but it will still be football.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
by SportsChicken on May 3, 2010 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
If they put the Franchise tag on Davis... is that guaranteed?
"Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, either way, YOU'RE RIGHT !"
The franchise tag
Actually isn’t guaranteed I don’t believe.
by Brendan Scolari on May 5, 2010 4:10 AM PDT up reply actions
What bothers me the most..
Is each player being a year older. That’s one less bit of progression for our fine rookies!
And then God created Saturn.. And he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
You go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre... contemplating a crime.
The big concern is the 49ers having a huge 2010 season and everyone needs to get paid
Alex Smith comes of age, than the team is paying $10-$12 million per year on a long contract to keep him
Manny Lawson has another productive season with maybe 3 more sacks the team at least has to pay him $4-$5 million to keep him around. Otherwise they have to draft a new starting OLB.
Vernon Davis would cost between $6-$8 million per season with a long contract.
Aubrayo Franklin would demand a long term contract around his current rate of $7 million. Also, the team would probably want to put the franchise tags on Smith and Davis and expose Franklin.
Dashon Goldson will be a free agent. If he’s continues to progress he’s another $3-$4 million per year player, maybe more.
Patrick Willis’s contract is on the horizon so the team has to leave money around for his huge upcoming contract.
Even longer term the team has to make sure it has money to hold onto Crabtree and not lose it’s top WR to free agency down the road.
The only places I see the team saving money next season is letting Baas go, releasing Clements $6 million and Michael Lewis’ $5 million and hoping it can find a replacement CB in the draft or cheaper. Lewis is probably already crossed off the roster for 2011 with Mays already aboard.
I’m just worried the 49ers might run into the Cardinal situation.
We just need to face the fact that the team will be losing some players.
I think Goldson will be the one to depart.
"Singletary Football". To me, Singletary Football isn’t whether it’s on the ground or in the air. It’s about execution, discipline, and the mental toughness that will help predicate success.
you mean
You HOPE Goldson is the one to depart.
Why not all of the following: Lewis, Jones, and Clements?
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 5:01 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
departures
I think he means long term the team won’t be re-signing all the young guys because it’s cost and potentially cap prohibitive (depending on the new CBA).
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I hope?
So we have another individual who is a mind reader. i said I think, as in I THINK, key word here is think. Departure is not a synonym for release or let go, especially not in this case. i think he will be the one to put money first he and Davis and I think Davis’s contract will be more attainable than Goldson’s.
Ask me why before you make assumptions, you know what they say about people that make assumptions. Child Please!!
"Singletary Football". To me, Singletary Football isn’t whether it’s on the ground or in the air. It’s about execution, discipline, and the mental toughness that will help predicate success.
I did assume
I seem to remember you not being too high on Goldson.
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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I'm not high on Goldson as a FS, nor am I high in him as being focused on the team.
Singletary famously burnt a time out to get the defense pumped for a big play, Goldson was not listening to him. Then guess who was toasted on a TD the very next play?
"Singletary Football". To me, Singletary Football isn’t whether it’s on the ground or in the air. It’s about execution, discipline, and the mental toughness that will help predicate success.
if that's the case
and Singletary would know best, as well as Manusky and position coaches…then fine. I don’t want me-first guys on the team
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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I'm not high on Goldson as a FS, nor am I high in him as being focused on the team.
I remember the Atlanta game, when Singletary famously burnt a timeout to rally the defense, he had all eyes and attention of every player on the defense except Goldson. Then after that rally, Goldson gave up another TD. Lack of Focus? New to the position? It wasn’t week 1 it was week 4 and he was not new to the system last year. However, Our defense should not suffer due to him playing there.
"Singletary Football". To me, Singletary Football isn’t whether it’s on the ground or in the air. It’s about execution, discipline, and the mental toughness that will help predicate success.
let me ask you this
if Reggie Smith, Curtis Taylor, etc. makes strides and Mays takes well in his first year…would you spend a high pick on a Safety in 2011 or roll with the youngsters?
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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(assuming Goldson is the odd man out)
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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I'm fine with our safties now I'd like to see what Reggie Smith can do at FS.
I just don’t like Goldson’s character, as a player he is good as a FS I don’t like his range.
"Singletary Football". To me, Singletary Football isn’t whether it’s on the ground or in the air. It’s about execution, discipline, and the mental toughness that will help predicate success.
Why would they get rid of Goldson if he proves himself as a solid talent in the NFL? That makes absolutely no sense… big contract or not.
"I'm blessed..... Thanks, God bless" ...hey, it worked for Tim Tebow.
Goldson
He’s not saying they plan on getting rid of him. It’s just that you can’t always afford to keep every single player they want to keep. It’d be nice and I’m sure the 49ers would like to try and re-up everybody, but it just might not necessarily be possible. Given the turnover in the NFL from team to team, it actually does make some sense.
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
why not the guys above?
keep the team young-ish and unload guys the youngsters unseat
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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players
Again, it’d be great to keep all these guys. For a guy like Goldson though, by the time the team potentially were to get a deal done, Lewis would probably already be gone. I’m not saying the team won’t try to re-sign them all, but it’s also possible the team will have to pick and choose where it loads up its roster. Part of this is that we don’t know what the new CBA will look like. Even if it’s the exact same as the current CBA, the amount the team would be looking to shell out in signing bonuses would be pretty huge. And with signing bonuses being immediate cash, that raises potential cash flow concerns for the organization.
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions
i'm saying release Lewis, Jones and Clements
to make room for Goldson
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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releases
I’m sure that will be factored in. But as I said already, you’re talking about a lot of signing bonus coming up soon. And also, again, none of us knows what the rules will be in a year when a Goldson deal would probably get done.
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions
tagging Davis might be a good idea
TE tag would be lower than FS tag and probably (I’m guessing) LB tag.
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 6:08 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
We won't release Clements
And if we released Lewis and Jones we won’t have nearly enough savings to make up the difference.
Antrel Rolle got a 5 year, $37 million deal. Goldson will be wanting similar money.
Even if we can get it down to 5 years, $30 million here’s how the salaries add up.
Brandon Jones’ salary
2011—$1.93 million
2012—$1.93 million
2013—$3.375 million
Michael Lewis’ salary
2011—$5.695
2012—$6.7 million
Nate Clements’ salary
2011—$7.25 million
2012—$9 million
2013—$10.77 million
Now we might be able to redoi Clement’s contract but I wouldn’t hold your breath
I was right, you were wrong.
whats a good number
To use for total yearly bonus money per team (or for the 49ers)? In other words, I’d like to see the numbers with a threshold to play with the salaries, bonuses, etc to fall within the limit. I lnow the cap (whether its official or not) is a decent number to limit annual player salary numbers but how much can the team afford to pay in signing bonuses when they have multiple deals to do?
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 6:21 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
bonus money
I don’t think we’ll ever know that number because it depends on a team’s current cash flow, budget constraints (especially if they need to save money to eventually pay for a new stadium), and philosophy on giving out big up-front money to a player.
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions
what did we spend last year
On bonus money? Just a ballpark would be good
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 6:33 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
bonus money
I need to look around for that to even get a ballpark. Unfortunately the NFL is sometimes rather secretive when it comes to contracts. Sometimes you can find the info, sometimes not. For example, Michael Crabtree’s contract is reportedly a 6 year deal worth $32 million, with $17 million of that guaranteed. The question is how much of that guaranteed money is signing bonus, and how much is rookie salary. I’d imagine a lot of that is signing bonus, but I don’t know for sure.
Alex Smith basically ripped up his old deal and signed a new 2 year deal worth $6.5 million, but I can’t find consistent info on what is signing bonus, what are incentives, what is salary, etc…
But I’ll see if I can find more details.
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Smith
$6.5 million is the actual salary over two years. He’s got another $4 million on top of that available through incentives, which I’m pretty sure he’s met.
I was right, you were wrong.
salary
I’m pretty sure some portion of the $6.5 million is bonus money. They always refer to a deal as including both salary and bonus money, but not incentives.
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Depends on revenue
49ers don’t generate much revenue because Candlestick is so old. I’m working on a post that will go over all the salary numbers for players currently on the team.
it’s actually very scary—at the end of 2010 we have 14 players who will need to be resigned.
Baas, Vernon Davis, Evans, Franklin, Goldson, Hill, Lawson, McDonald, Miller, Sims, Spikes, Wilhelm, Wragge, Ziegler
Now of these players we’ll be saying goodbye to Baas, Evans, Ziegler, Wilhelm, Wragge, and Ziegler. We might be saying goodbye to Spikes as well, depending on how either McKillop or Bowman do this season.
We’ll have to find money somewhere to sign Franklin to a new contract, Lawson, and VD. My guess is that we’ll franchise Goldson for one year.
I was right, you were wrong.
neither VD or Goldson are as of yet
Proven beyond one good season, but VD prolly has the edge. The tag for TE is lower but then again so would his deal be I’d guess?
It will be interesting to see if anyone steps up as potential replacement to Franklin as that would free up some money. Those are big shoes to fill though…
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 7:32 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I'd also bet
That one of our OLBs won’t be around in 2011
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 7:33 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
to be honest i could argue
That we could part ways with Sims, McDonald, Miller, Hill, and Lawson too. Obviously we won’t lose them all but those guys above haven’t completely entrenched themselves in future roles yet.
Sims is 35 and has young blood sneaking in. McDonald should win a spot but needs a solid 2010. Miller has to win the FB spot I think to be a lock. Hill could see his time cut by Williams (or other). And Lawson has been ready for a breakout for a few years, plus has competition in Brooks possibly (if Brooks can learn more about every down OLB).
Just saying to make room for the elite guys we could make some sacrifices.
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 7:42 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Just remember that cutting guys still means we need to sign new guys.
The cap has been like this for a long time—teams succeed with it, and rarely does a team fail because of it.
And then God created Saturn.. And he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
You go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre... contemplating a crime.
I think the Cardinals failed losing players. Losing Warner and Boldin was probably inevitable.
However Dansby and Rolle were mistakes in cap management on their part. With their draft picks this season the Cardinals could have gone into the 2010 season relying on a decent defense to try to carry them to a division title.
I'm not so sure.
The Cardinals were falling fast, I really get the feeling that Dansby, at the very least, was jumping ship.
And then God created Saturn.. And he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
You go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre... contemplating a crime.
Yeah but you need the solid guys too
because they’re the ones that help your elite guys stay elite.
I was right, you were wrong.
what am I missing?
Lewis and Jones salaries total over 7M per year starting in 2011, which is the average per year of say a 35M deal over 5 yrs and the first few years would be much less plus bonus money reduces salary figure too. What did I miss in your post?
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 6:24 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Goldson is a FA at the end of this season
so we have to find money to sign him to a big contract this year.
I was right, you were wrong.
does the next FA period start at the same time as the next business year?
Meaning aren’t we forced to negotiate a deal that satisfies the 30pct rule before Goldson can walk?
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 7:27 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Well if a new CBA isn't reached by the new NFL year
it’s all moot anyway since there probably won’t be football in 2012
I was right, you were wrong.
but if there is...
my point is that the only way around the 30pct rule is to wait until Goldson is a UFA anways and hope we’re the best offer
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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and why not release Clements
By 2011 season? If its having to choose Goldson or Nate I am betting brass goes with upside and youth…assuming Goldson plays really well this year. If he doesn’t this is rather moot as his deal won’t be nearly that size.
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 6:26 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Clements is probably our best CB
who is going to step in and replace him?
I was right, you were wrong.
that remains to be seen
As does Clements level of play at the end of the 2010 season. I could argue that we did OK without him last year, Spencer may further improve and Brown could step up in 2010 too. Its all an unknown but I wonder if keeping a guy who’s play is likely getting ready to decline in favor of resigning a young talented guy like Goldson is a wise move.
Then again maybe Mays catches on quick amd Reggie Smith or Curtis Taylor has an epiphany and Goldson starts to look more expendable…just making cases for what could happen and I can’t rule out Clements getting the boot.
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 7:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Goldson will want more, he out performed him last year. Who's to say the contract Berry gets won't come into play when he signs?
"Singletary Football". To me, Singletary Football isn’t whether it’s on the ground or in the air. It’s about execution, discipline, and the mental toughness that will help predicate success.
You still have to make room for Willis, the rookies, Smith, Davis, and anyone else wh osteps up and is worth more money.
You sign everyone to lucrative deals, then you have to let go of Crabtree, Brooks, and a lot of other potential rising stars. Longevity is a must when figuring contracts. Our franchise has been there before we all seen what happened.
"Singletary Football". To me, Singletary Football isn’t whether it’s on the ground or in the air. It’s about execution, discipline, and the mental toughness that will help predicate success.
Its Tough
l guess the answer is that we win the superbowl for the next 3 years,get more fans ,financial support thats it!!!
Turnover...
I wish there was some way to prevent that.
"I'm blessed..... Thanks, God bless" ...hey, it worked for Tim Tebow.
turnover
Free agency is obviously a big part of it, but it’s just as much a product of the specific rules. After all, the league could set rules that make it easier for a team to re-sign their own player (like some of the NBA rules).
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I disagree about the turnover from team to team
It was a huge problem in the past but no so much in the last few years. Players are still getting record breaking deals but the overall salary cap has been increasing at a greater rate than player contracts.
There are enough parlor tricks in the CBA to allow teams to keep their talent together for years, if they know how to play the game. The Patriots, Colts and Ravens have been able to keep the core of their roster together for almost a decade. If you look back each probably only lost one free agent in the prime of their careers, the rest were older players they weren’t bringing back anyway.
The Cardinals the other hand proved to be absolute idiots because they setup all their contracts to expire at once, hence couldn’t use the franchise tags, restricted free agents, extra cap space per season, extra bargaining time, etc. Now it looks the 49ers are making a similar mistake. Instead being active and making sure all their contracts expired in staggered years to string their top players along, everyone will be a free agent at the same time making for a fire sale on their talent pool.
They are better off attempting to extend Franklin, Lawson and Goldson to moderate term contracts. Those players will still likely to be productive in the next few years and can evaluate and re-balance the roster each season in case they need to pony up more money to keep a star.
this
Is what I am hoping for. Due to the 30pct rule the 49ers should do some short term extensions with high guaranteed money to extend a few guys out away from the end of the 2010 season. It’ll cost more now but buys time to make more plans and extend others (hopefully with return of CBA). I’d hope for at least one major deal to be done this year and the tag can be used to retain another.
Question remains is who would you say goodbye to if you had to pick one of the 3 (VD, Franklin, Goldson)?
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 8:04 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I would probably lean towards Franklin for two reasons.
He’s the 2nd best on the list but probably as expensive as VD. If Goldson does play well in 2010 I still don’t think he approaches Rolle’s contract with the Giants, mainly because that contract was ridiculous and Rolle sucks so he’ll convince everyone paying a non Pro Bowl safety is stupid.
I’m also not sold on the notion that NT in the 3-4 defense is the absolute paramount everyone says it is. The Ravens have told a few productive NT’s to hit the road and it did not slow down their defense, not much at least. It’s nice to a have strong NT, but if the LB corp is strong I think a 3-4 defense can get away with a so-so NT. A team can afford to two good LBs with Franklin’s salary.
We don't even have a so-so NT
Sopoaga can’t handle the run on the end spot, he sure won’t be able to handle the NT spot. Balmer and RJF haven’t done anything to show that they’re ready to take over at NT, though I think the coaches want RJF to step into that role.
I was right, you were wrong.
I don't know much about Mitchell
but I do know they want him to compete at NT too.
I’m kinda surprised we didn’t take Cam Thomas actually. Or the best UDFA NT prospect.
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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Thank you Fooch, and yes this is exactly what I mean.
It has nothing to do with what I like and dislike about a player. It’s what I feel, and that’s why I said I think. I would love to keep them all, I am one of the bloggers here that raves about continuity so let’s not get aside from ourselves because you don’t like what I said. This is what taking comments personal means and the proof is right here on the board.
"Singletary Football". To me, Singletary Football isn’t whether it’s on the ground or in the air. It’s about execution, discipline, and the mental toughness that will help predicate success.
I'm not taking it personal
I just seemed to remember you saying Goldson wasn’t very good during the Eric Berry campaign.
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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I don't like him as a FS and it had nothing to do with wanting Berry.
I’d rather have Mays back there, i question Goldson’s range as a FS, but it’s just my opinion of him.
"Singletary Football". To me, Singletary Football isn’t whether it’s on the ground or in the air. It’s about execution, discipline, and the mental toughness that will help predicate success.
Our first priority
has to be Signing Patrick Willis, and I have no concern about that, or about signing Vernon Davis. The front office just has to be smart with the money, and I think it can be done with a decent negotiation. More worried about this playing season than the next offseason.
Hit like Berry, Score like Jerry.
I don't get this
We all worry about like 5 players contracts. Thats all? 5 players? Come on, for our team to be good, we can’t have a bunch of crap players that cost nothing… I think that with where we are as a team (NFC west champs, etc) only 5 big players is a good situation to be in
Dashon, Mays, and Bamm Bamm will get the record for most decapitations in one season
by MichaelClutchtree on May 3, 2010 4:11 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
We don’t just let a player get good then be like “oh you cost too much let’s cut you and draft someone so they’re cheap.”
Dashon, Mays, and Bamm Bamm will get the record for most decapitations in one season
by MichaelClutchtree on May 3, 2010 4:13 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Most of a team's salary
is tied up in 5 players. Most players earn veteran minimum or just above. It’s the few stars that tie up the salary, which is why we worry about them.
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well still isnt it good to have some good players that can command large contracts rather than have a bunch of mediocre players?
if we can get alex smith (QB is a typical big money position), one of the top TEs (hopefully) in the league, the top ILB in the league, a decent priced safety, and a good OLB as well, that seems pretty typical of a team
Dashon, Mays, and Bamm Bamm will get the record for most decapitations in one season
by MichaelClutchtree on May 3, 2010 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
That's not where most of the money is tied up
linemen are the second highest paid position on average in the NFL. Higher even than running backs. Highest of course is QB.
I was right, you were wrong.
What the NFL .....
need’s too due is get a rookie salary cap in place so they stop paying all that money… (.Fooch , Smiley or Drew K ) … think’n we need a post on that …!!
Kewl
I hear an echo
I was saying in the fanshot that short term deals are the way to go in the uncapped year. That’s exactly why Kolb got the two year restructure with all guaranteed. It was the only way they could give him a big raise and not pay 5 or 6 years worth of high cost bonus money. Hopefully the guaranteed money can be paid each year so there’s a chance to renegotiate it before the next year comes (assuming a cap returns).
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 4:38 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
man, this thread really has me thinking
That the window is closing already for this team. Tagging Davis for 2011 buys us 1 more year with our best players (assuming they resign Alex) after 2010.
Still that would mean we would have to sign a ton of high dollar players after 2011 or we WOULD end up in the situation the Cardinals were just in.
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 6:54 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Goldson is a FA and Franklin will also be a FA
so we’ve got our stud NT, our stud safety, and our stud TE all coming up to FA.
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who would be your odd man out
At this point? Tough call.
Maybe Walker and Byham can play well enough to not miss VD too much?
Can Mays, Smith, and Taylor play well enough to lose Goldson?
Or do we have a guy like Khalif Mitchell who can step up and anchor the defense (or draft a NT)?
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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by Tre9er on May 3, 2010 7:49 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I think we can reach a deal with VD
as well as Franklin. I think Goldson gets tagged.
I was right, you were wrong.
Really?
I think the team lets Franklin walk.
And then God created Saturn.. And he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
You go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre... contemplating a crime.
Good NT are really hard to find
if he does a good job this year I think we can reach a deal with him.
Unless we see a huge upswing from Balmer or RJF we have to resign him.
I was right, you were wrong.
It's just a gut feeling I've been having.
My schedule has recently opened up wide, by the way. Let’s get to Skype asap anytime in the coming days.
As far as Franklin, I don’t know, I just had it in my head that he was gone, for the longest time.
And then God created Saturn.. And he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
You go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre... contemplating a crime.
I'd hate to see him leave
we just don’t have anyone in place that can take over for him.
Had we drafted someone like Cody or Cam Thomas I’d feel better.
I was right, you were wrong.
Cam Thomas was on my wishlist.
How’s the NT class look like next season? I don’t think they want to LET him walk, just I’ve always had this feeling that he wouldn’t go for what they’d offer.
And then God created Saturn.. And he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
You go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre... contemplating a crime.
You might be right about him wanting to get more
and he might be able to get it too.
Marvin Austin from North Carolina is probably the best prospect but he’s a little light at 305lbs. Jared Crick from Nebraska might be one of the better DT in the nation but at 285lbs he wouldn’t fit in well as a 3-4 defensive lineman.
Stephen Paea from Oregon State is actually a really good option too. 6’1 and 311lbs, so he has the size. He’s already used to being double teamed and has a strong rugby background.
I was right, you were wrong.
Yeah I'm just getting into college a bit more and Austin was the only guy I knew about.
Something about Franklin just screams "I waaaant mooooney!!
And then God created Saturn.. And he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
You go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre... contemplating a crime.
Knew about extensively, that is.
And then God created Saturn.. And he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
You go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre... contemplating a crime.
Stephen Paea highlights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctrE9J0Jy_A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=771jbJvhdG8
I was right, you were wrong.
Will have to check those out as soon as this album finishes.
And then God created Saturn.. And he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
You go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre... contemplating a crime.
Trade with the Steelers but I don't see him staying.
"Singletary Football". To me, Singletary Football isn’t whether it’s on the ground or in the air. It’s about execution, discipline, and the mental toughness that will help predicate success.
I'd like to see some terms tossed out there
2-3 year deals? They’re not going to give up %80 of the contract in signing bonus…
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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How
Is Goldson considered a “stud” now?
by Brendan Scolari on May 5, 2010 4:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Seriously?
Goldson does far more for us than Lawson does. Lawson is just an average OLB—we can pick one up on the cheap without paying him what he’s going to be askign for
I was right, you were wrong.
Why do you think Goldson is a better than average safety?
I think Lawson is better than average as well, he’s only a decent pass rusher but he’s very good in pass coverage and against the run.
by Brendan Scolari on May 6, 2010 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Goldson's stats and play show that he's far better than average
Lawson’s stats all show him as being below average except for his forced fumble stats.
I was right, you were wrong.
The Cardinals players knew it was a sinking ship.
And then God created Saturn.. And he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
You go strolling through the crowd like Peter Lorre... contemplating a crime.
For those wondering
Rough estimate of 49er 2009 signing bonus money (includes roster bonuses but not incentives).
$51.48 million
Top recipients of SB money
Smith, Justin $7,083,333
Haralson, Parys $4,920,000
Smith, Alex $4,000,000
Gore, Frank$3,983,000
Sopoaga, Isaac $3,155,000
Lewis, Michael $3,100,000
Davis, Vernon $2,440,000
Clements, Nate $2,166,666
Jones, Brandon $1,940,000
Willis, Patrick $1,855,000
Spencer, Shawntae $1,800,000
Spikes, Takeo $1,750,000
Heitmann, Eric $1,500,000
Sims, Barry $1,340,000
Balmer, Kentwan $1,200,000
Lawson, Manny $1,059,220
Nedney, Joe Thomas $1,025,000
I was right, you were wrong.
signing bonus
How did you calculate Justin Smith’s bonus money? Did you include a $2,333,333 figure? I can’t find any other way to come to your figure without including that. If you did, that’s the pro-rated part of the signing bonus he got when he first signed with the 49ers. He received the signing bonus up front and for cap accounting purposes it appears as pro-rated over the life of the contract.
by David Fucillo on May 3, 2010 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I copied the info straight over from ninercaphell.com
http://www.ninercaphell.com/salary
And it does look the money they list is just for salary cap purposes so I’ll have to calculate the amounts again (though I don’t think it’ll be far off that $51 million mark)
I was right, you were wrong.
Recalculated numbers
Joe Staley $13,040,000
Justin Smith $7,083,333
Frank Gore $3,983,000
Parys Haralson $4,900,000
Nate Clements $2,166,666
Alex Smith $4,000,000
Isaac Sopoaga $3,155,000
Michael Lewis $3,100,000
Vernon Davis $2,440,000
Shawntae Spencer $1,800,000
Total bonus money—$68,567,421
Total salary money—$58,795, 318
Total revenue spent on player salaries and bonuses—$127,097,739. (This is not the same amount that was applied to the salary cap.
I was right, you were wrong.
Justin Smith
How are you getting Justin Smith’s $7,083,333 number?
by David Fucillo on May 4, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
signing bonus
The signing bonus was paid all up front though I think. That’s the purpose of a signing bonus. Roster bonuses and workout bonuses are over multiple years, but the signing bonus is not. Are those recalculated numbers cap numbers or actual paid out money numbers for that year?
by David Fucillo on May 4, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
paid otu numbers
and I’m pretty sure that the guaranteed money was split up
I was right, you were wrong.
Well we better hope Alex Smith sines then
That way we can sign him while he’d still be relatively cheap. One very good year won’t warrant a huge contract. If we have to draft a new franchise QB in the 1st round next season, that’s going to be really really expensive unless there is some sort of rookie salary cap in place before then.
"I'm blessed..... Thanks, God bless" ...hey, it worked for Tim Tebow.
Or the other alternative would be to let Carr take over as a stop gap until a rookie salary cap is in place.
"I'm blessed..... Thanks, God bless" ...hey, it worked for Tim Tebow.
I wonder though
if Alex Smith blows up in 2010 and tosses 35+ TD’s to 15- INT’s, etc, etc…is he going to command a big money deal in the open market? I know teams need QB’s but does 1 good year and half of a decent year equate to big money? For a guy half the league had written off?
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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This
If we have to draft a new franchise QB in the 1st round next season, that’s going to be really really expensive unless there is some sort of rookie salary cap in place before then.
I think that’s what the team is betting on. Either Alex steps up and rocks, or the new rookie cap system is in place so they can get a new QB on the cheap….
Either way, I think it plays to the team’s advantage. If Alex rocks, he’s negotiating a new deal from a starting point of $4m a year, with only 1 good season to bolster his position. PLUS the team gets the QB they thought Smith was. WIN for SF.
If he sucks bad, the the rookie cap (that many if not most folks I’m reading think will happen) protects against an over-inflated salary for their 1st round pick next year… WIN for SF.
I think it’s pretty brilliant if you ask me…
And not to take it to a new level of utopianism, but Smith doesn’t seem to be the kind of guy to hold the team hostage for a huge contract anyway, unless it’s ridiculously out of line with what he might be able to get somewhere else… I just don’t see him jumping because of money…especially if the team starts winning a lot.
this deal
smileyman:
VDs 2009 salary—$1.44 million. Celek last year signed an 8 year, $34 million deal. I expect VD’s to be a bit north of that, probably something like 6 years $35 million. So based on the 30% rule here’s how his contract would have to be structured.
2010—$1.872
2011—$2.43
2012—$3.16
2013—$4.11
2014—$5.35
2015—$6.95
Guaranteed $6.387 million. That’s not a bad deal for a TE.
I’m fine with that deal. Get it done. Bump up the guaranteed if you have to, it’s not hideous.
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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quote fail
sorry, everything through “That’s not a bad deal for a TE” was smileyman’s post from the fanshot thread on this topic.
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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should be
2010: $1,872,000
2011: $2,304,000
2012: $2,736,000
2013: $3,168,000
2014: $3,600,000
2015: $4,032,000
according to Fooch. making the guaranteed money:
6yrs = 17.29M.
5yrs = 15.49M
4yrs = 13.25M
3yrs = 10.588M
2yrs = 7.49M
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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I say give VD the 2 or 3 year deal
now and try to rework it later into an even longer term deal.
Coaches teach technique, they can't teach speed. Taylor Mays will be just fine.
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