Will the 49ers Defense Smell Without Their Nose?
by Tre9er on Jun 16, 2010 9:05 AM PDT
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As most of you have read by now, 49ers nose tackle Aubrayo Franklin will not be attending mini-camp, per his agent (via Matt Barrows). Franklin, widely held as one of the league's better NT's, has not attended any of the team's OTA's while he seeks a long term deal in favor of the franchise tag. It now appears that Franklin is even more serious about sitting out in protest.
Meanwhile second year player Ricky Jean-Francois has been getting all of the first and second team reps at NT, and so far has been impressing coaches with how quickly he's picking things up. This begs the question: What kind of drop-off can we expect from the defense should Jean-Francois (RJF hereafter) be forced to be the starter at NT?
RJF is not prototypical size for a nose tackle, weighing in currently around 310-315 pounds, but then again Franklin himself plays at around 317 pounds. Both players are known for being disruptive, quick, strong players rather than immovable mass. So it's not impossible to envision RJF playing effectively at NT even though he may seem underweight.
RJF is also very strong, recently squatting over 600 pounds to the amazement of teammates in the weight room at the time. Lower body strength is key to playing nose tackle as the player must anchor the defense and not give up ground, if anything, pushing forward.
What RJF doesn't have that Franklin does is NFL game experience at the position. Franklin started all 16 games in 2009 and though one might not be impressed with his stat line, he did an excellent job of keeping offensive linemen off of the linebackers to they could roam the backfield and make plays. RJF has credited Franklin with being a very smart player who learns how to play his opponents as the game goes on.
So while there will be an obvious drop-off between Franklin and RJF, just how much will it impact the overall performance of the defense? If we had to say "the defense would be ranked X in the league with Franklin and Y without him."...what would those rankings be? Can the 49ers call Franklin's bluff and, if necessary, move on and simply plug in the young former 7th round pick?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.
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so, I see lots of votes but no comments!
How “bad” would the defense be without Franklin? Or would it just not be quite as good? Does the team not make the playoffs because of it?
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still make the playoffs
its a significant downgrade but by the time we hit the playoffs RJF could be just as good. honestly though. Franklin will come to play and be there for training camp. i expected him to sit out until mid to late july.
by SuspendingBJ on Jun 16, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
come on tre
you know franklin is not going to pass up 7 mil. 7 mil guaranteed! But having not signed he’s not required to be there meaning he doesn’t lose any money. I think right now hes got his agent on the horn with paraag trying to get a multi year deal done. Im sure he’s "working his tail off " right now and enjoying being with his family.
Because once training camp begins or the regular seaon and he shows up, he sure wont be seeing them much till late feb. after our deep playoff run. In all reality he’s gonna probably sign by the 1st game and be on a 1 year mentorship to get RJF ready for 2011.Then the 9ers will let him go and get big $ money somewhere else, tag goldson, and have the NT for the next few years SUPER CHEAP 7th round cheap, and by 2012,2013 RJF will need a new deal.
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yeah, I know he doesn't have to be here
and he’s not signed, so if he get’s hurt he’s got nothing. I think unsigned rookies would fall into that same category though too right?
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yes if he were to attend OTA
its not required for him to be under contract. So if he was to have a freak injury there goes the 7mil guaranteed. So instead of sign the tender so he can practice in shorts and tshirts and not worry about getting hurt and be assured the 7 mil. He’s waiting to see what his agent can get in terms of a long term deal and probably “working his tail off” so when he does sign hes ready to go.
Lets not forget he knows who his coach is. If he signs and comes in out of shape the talks for a long term deal after next year are history before they start.
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The dropoff would be pretty large at first.
RJF simply isn’t ready for the job, and you don’t usually get a defensive lineman playing time by throwing him into the fire, they need to be developed.
Also, rec’d.
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Great topic
Franklin’s agent is more than likely harping on the fact that 3-4’s are all the rage, and a 3-4 ready NT therefore has high value.
On the other end, Franklin had ONE good year. The Niners reward their players for sure. We all know that. Does Franklin think ONE good year makes him extension eligible. I get the business maneuver, but if Franklin thinks he’s “sit out” worthy he’s got another thing coming (another team).
I don’t think that at all… and of course this is all speculation on your behalf
by Drew K on Apr 14, 2010 2:05 PM PDT
Turning down franchise tags that will pay you 7.5 Million
says a lot about how you view the team and your place in it. It also says that you think you might have gotten lucky with your last season or you’d take that ridiculous salary and have an even better year then really get paid. After 1 franchise tagged year you’ve earned a hold out if they still won’t pay you but not until then.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jun 21, 2010 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions
gf, I posted this in a different thread, but it nicely reinforces what you've said here, so...
I think his refusal (so far) to sign says volumes about him…
I believe that it [Franklin’s refusal to sign his tender] shows lack of confidence in his abilities by him (and/or his agent).
If he were to sign the tender, then have another outstanding season, he would become a UFA coming off back-to-back excellent seasons, and he’d command BIG bucks in a long term contract in the free agent market.
Because of the lack of confidence to put together another top-notch season, he wants to sign a long term contract NOW, locking in those big bucks so he doesn’t need this season to gain that bargaining position.
After all was said and done, a lot more got said than done.
It's not lack of confidence
It’s capitalizing on past success. Any number of things can go wrong for a nose tackle. First and foremost, they’re fighting in the trenches, often getting double teamed. That means injuries are a bigger risk than for other players… for whom the injury risk is already very high. Then there’s the possibility that you’ll get more attention from the offensive line and your stat sheet will suffer.
It’s trying to capitalize on success and knowing the inherent risks of future play. Every player who is franchised is pissed about it. Every player wants to capitalize and sign a long term contract because it means more guaranteed money. In the NFL, your future is not guaranteed. You have to get what you can while you’re healthy enough to be productive…
See: Johnson, Chris. You think he’s considering holding out because he’s not confident in his abilities? Heck no. He wants to get paid.
As goatfather said. I see the business and financial reasoning, but he’s not that good and his ONE GOOD YEAR is pretty transparent in negotiations.
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by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 25, 2010 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions
you gotta admit though
when you have a monster year, you’re thinking “right now I can get paid big time because of this…if I somehow dont repeat next year though, I probably wont get as much”
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Definitely
Much like Chris Johnson because history shows no player has gone over 2000 yards two years in a row. So odds are that Johnson could potentially earn the most money if he can receive a new contract this off-season.
by ZeroOneInfinity on Jun 27, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions
yeah
so in a way, it shows lack of confidence in your overall season upcoming…though not necessarily your skills.
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For players like Franklin and Johnson who haven’t had that huge payday yet, you’ve got to get in while the getting is good. The risk is not worth the reward when you have the chance to increase your net worth by an order of magnitude. That is really the only factor in the equation. Do I have a chance to sign a big contract? Yes, well then I’m going to hold out until I do sign that contract lest I get injured in training camp.
And teams are not obligated to honor signed contracts. All they’re on the hook for is the signing bonus. Other than that, if a player isn’t performing up to his contract, he gets cut. If the players don’t fight for pay raises when they overperform, they’re just getting taken advantage of.
It’s not so much lack of confidence, as it is “Look how well I played last year, pay me for services rendered.”
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
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by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 28, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
that's why I wish there were more incentives and a bit less signing bonus money
in essence, the Titans DID pay CJ for services rendered through his original contract. There was no “but if you do better than XYZ you’ll get more money”. If there was, it would have been in the form of incentive bonuses, and he would have been paid for his 2000 yards rushing (say, a million per 1000 yards). But guys choose the signing bonuses, then we quickly forget about them and act like their paltry salaries are the only thing they’re getting for their performances.
And when he signs a new deal it’ll be huge up front cash and if he puts together a few more stellar years he’ll point to his current yearly salary and how it should be more…I just don’t like the system of huge up-front bonuses then complain about contract later.
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but I know his rookie deal was small
another reason for NLTBE bonuses. Why don’t we see more of these (smileyman)?
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Salary cap reasons mostly
Plus players want the guaranteed money.
Let’s say you’ve got a guy with a vetern minimum paycheck ($800k or so), and has NLTBE incentives worth $4.5 million. That’s a $5.3 million payday, which isn’t too shabby.
if he hits those the team can’t spread the costs of the bonuses out over the length of the players contract like you can for signing bonuses, so they count against that year’s salary cap.
Now let’s say this player is having a phenomenal year. It’s 8 games into the season and he’s well on track to that big payday and then blows out hsi achilles and is done for the season. Well now he doesn’t have that money (even if he was on track for it), nor does he have any job security, because some younger, better, cheaper player might come in and take it from him.
If he gets released due to the injury his job market has shrinked considerably, as has his value.
Personally I think the answer is to make all contracts fully guaranteed like they do in the NBA. If you make the active roster by the cut-off date (mid-march for the NFL) you’ve made the money.
This will lead to smaller deals, since so many of the blockbuster deals include “fake money” tacked to the last couple of years of the deal that the players almost never see.
If a player can sign a 5 year $30 million (absolutely 100% guaranteed) deal vs a 5 year $50 million (of which only $20 million is fully guaranteed), which would you rather do as a player?
it’s also cheaper for franchises too since they can plan on paying smaller amounts out. it will also make free agents available sooner, since if a team hangs on to a guy past the deadline they’re liable for his salary, where now teams can hang onto a guy and then trade him to dump his salary onto his new team.
The solution might be to fully guarantee contracts like they do in the
Logic merely enables one to be wrong with authority
my only question is
wont players still point to their salary when they exceed expectations (even with a guaranteed contract)?
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Yeah...
but if I blow my numbers out of the water at work, I’d be asking for a raise too. The difference, I guess, is that I can’t just “not show up” in order to improve my negotiating position.
I don’t fault athletes for wanting to up their pay when they have earned it. I don’t like how many of the go about doing it though…
Well most civilian jobs have a structure in place
where you know when you’ll be getting your raise and what you have to do to earn it. Especially if you’re in a job that’s based on numbers.
Most of my life I’ve done sales, and I always knew that if I wanted a bigger paycheck I just needed to sell more. It’s not the same way for pro athletes at all.
Since owners can dump athletes whenever they like I have no problem with athletes holding out to get a better deal.
Logic merely enables one to be wrong with authority
I'm sure hoping that they'll address this in the new CBA, but I'm not going to hold my breath...
After all was said and done, a lot more got said than done.
vet experience means a lot
Franklin might not have been starter for long but he’s been a NT for while, dating back to his time in B’more as a backup. A wiley vet at nose can be like a smart center on offense. RJF might be physically as giffted but that veteran know how he can’t gain immediately
by random_guy on Jun 16, 2010 7:07 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
I don't think it'll make much of a difference
I love Franklin—he was one of my favorite defensive players last year, but I don’t think we’ll see a signficant drop-off if he’s not there. I think Manusky is smart enough that he can create schemes that fill in his absence. I also think that RJF is coming along nicely and could step in and do well if Franklin isn’t here.
To be honest Franklin doesn’t have much in the way of leverage to get a better deal done.
Logic merely enables one to be wrong with authority
I'm leaning towards this line of thinking as well
I know you can’t compare RJF to Franklin, but as you said I think Manusky is a heckuva D.Coord and can find a way to scheme around that. We have enough OLB’s, for instance, to send an OLB more often in base defense, then sub him out if he’s getting tired from rushing. That’d give us another body to occupy up front. I’m just throwing stuff against the wall but you get the idea.
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franklin will sign before the first game
Can u c coach sing's vision? I do!......We all know PATRICK WILLIS is our future!
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he gotta sign by July 14th I believe it is
or else he’s getting 110% of last year..someone help me out here?
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u might be right
i think someone like smiley would no this
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July 22nd
but can’t find the language about what the salary goes to then, if it changes from the Franchise amount
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i believe the team can drop the amount
Can u c coach sing's vision? I do!......We all know PATRICK WILLIS is our future!
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All the dates are for
is to limit when teams can work out alternate deals.
In the case of an exclusive franchise player (which Franklin is) the player has until Nov 9. In the case of a transition tag the player has until July 22nd.
Logic merely enables one to be wrong with authority
so Franklin can get a long term deal by Nov 9th or play for the Franchise money otherwise
cool. So there’s no withdrawal and 110% of last year’s salary like there were for RFA’s?
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anyone who has twitter
please tweet our fanposts and FP post with a #49ers on the end.
thank you.
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please tweet a link to the posts, what I meant
thanks
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Chose slight drop-off
While I know the D will see a decline in effectiveness, I think that the decline wouldn’t be crippling and as time went on, would become less significant. Early on, Justin Smith’s production would likely decline as he would have to provide more support in holding the line as opposed to penetrating into the backfield. But, with Willis able to cover so much field quickly, the LBs would be able to provide the extra support necessary in making stops. This would effect the pass rush to a degree, which would put more pressure on our already suspect secondary, but it’s not something that can’t be overcome. Based on the weaker schedule we have and the overall weakness of our entire division, this would be the best time to get the game experience for RJF.
However, it would become a lot tougher to win the division outright without Franklin present. I’m still hoping that he signs an extension at some point, but he’ll definitely be playing this year. No way I see him turning down 7 million guaranteed, especially since he’d be less likely to get a big contract if he holds out for an extended period of time.
RJF is great leverage too
Franklin can watch RJF get reps in practice, preseason, and some game time…every good play he’s in on drives Franklin’s leverage down, or at least drives the team’s interest in him down some.
The question then turns to who is the 3rd NT? Think we’ll be taking a late round DT in 2011 draft if Franklin walks? I do.
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3rd NT now, but would be 2nd NT if Franklin walks
I meant
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Yeah...
I could see a mid round pick going to a guy who can alternate between end and NT if we don’t take a pure LDE early in the draft. That will depend on Balmer and McDonald’s development this year. If neither of them really step up, it’s possible we take a pure LDE somewhere and a pure NT as well.
Either way, I think our overall talent on defense can offset the loss of Franklin for a short time. RJF would have to really develop quickly on the field though if we want to win some playoff games. The defense can’t carry him forever and still make enough stops to beat the best in the league. Assuming Franklin holds out the entire year, RJF would have to be playing well by about our first game against the Cards in order to win playoff games. That might even be too late to even make the playoffs depending on how the rest of the division plays.
by 9thevolution on Jun 17, 2010 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions
I think they'd simplify his role as much as possible
and adjust everyone around him a bit, scheme around it. Hey, what if Franklin blew out his achilles or something in camp?!? We’d be in the same boat.
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Very true, but don't jinx it.
I could see Manusky working around it, but I don’t want to see Smith’s production decrease to compensate or LDE (whoever that is) exposed frequently because it’s a weakness. In a recent interview with RJF, he even said he’s eagerly awaiting Franklin’s return so he can pick his brain. Great that he wants that knowledge, but not inspiring confidence that he’s ready to take over immediately.
by 9thevolution on Jun 17, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
he wants to know how the veteran does it
rather than learn by trial and error…everyone wants to talk to the incumbent. Tim Ryan said the other day on Sirius NFL Radio how it’s funny but every year a rookie comes in and you help them essentially take your job…but you do it anyways cause it’s football and you love it.
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Obviously it's better to learn the little tricks before playing...
than figure it out as you go. And especially considering our NTs are undersized, it’s best that he learns from Franklin how to really do it.
True story about helping others take your job. If they asked me at work to teach some new guy how to do my job, I’d be a little worried that I was getting the axe.
by 9thevolution on Jun 17, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Josh Morgan did it for Crabtree.
Good guy.
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by James Brady on Jun 17, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
so did Isaac Bruce for Morgan
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Eh. Bruce was retiring.
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dude
you have to admit, he was nothing short of classy last year.
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He was very classy.
But it’s not like it wasn’t expected.
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Regardless of what RJF does...
…I’m not sure he really has what it takes to be top-flight. I’d like (at this very early point) for our top two draft picks next season to be CB and NT. Or CB and DE.
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by James Brady on Jun 17, 2010 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Corner and Nose, definitely.
Those were the two things that were clearly ignored in this draft.
by 9thevolution on Jun 17, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
no way
who was the earliest DT taken by a 3-4 team?
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No way? Seriously?
Uhhh, Tre?
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I dunno man
I can’t see the 49ers taking a NT in the first or maybe even the 2nd round. I would have been perfectly happy with a Cam Thomas type of guy this year.
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That would be fine with me as well
But what other position would you spend those first two picks on?
NOTE: The only acceptable answer here is LDE. I’ll turn a blind eye if you say QB, but that’s it.
by 9thevolution on Jun 17, 2010 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions
CB, LDE, OC perhaps
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OC in the first couple wouldn't make sense.
Heitmann has three top-level years left in him, plenty of time to get a guy in the 4th-5th and develop him.
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IDK
I wouldn’t scream at the TV if they took a Maurkice Pouncey type in the 2nd round, considering we’ll be picking in the late 50’s, early 60’s. That is, unless someone more than 2 years younger than Heitmann steps up big. I hear Wallace got some reps at G yesterday…who knows.
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Nah, Wallace has no chance.
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my bad, I was mistaken
it was Wragge who was with the 1st team for a few plays at LG
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I'd wait until Heitmann is done...
and then take a first round center. Or at least the year before his contract is up and then get a guy in the second. I’m not so sold on James’ idea of a late round guy to develop. We have that in Wallace and no one seems too impressed with him. Plus you then have to roster him and use a spot for a guy who doesn’t even dress. And what’s to say Heitmann doesn’t have a long time left? He isn’t a constant injury problem and he could play a long career like Mawae. That guy’s 40 and still better than some centers in the league.
by 9thevolution on Jun 18, 2010 7:12 AM PDT up reply actions
the reason I say get one next year is this
where are we you think if Heitmann goes down? We have no earthly idea how well ANY of the guys who have been snapping the ball in practice would play in game situations. Wragge is probably the best bet and he might not make the roster this year in favor of Baas and Snyder. If nobody ends up with any significant game time, I think we’re still looking at a huge question mark at backup Center (and eventual future Center). Just cause Baas and Snyder “can snap the ball” doesn’t mean they’d be effective playing Center in the game. Thus far Wallace seems meh, so let’s solve the one and only (we hope) glaring future question mark on the O-Line.
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If we draft a guy...
he’s going to have the same problem. It’s a complete wash. He won’t get any game time behind Heitmann, so what difference does it make. Just because he can snap the ball doesn’t mean he’s going to be effective. At least with Baas, we have a guy who has experience playing Center and has become accustomed to playing in the NFL. Much better imo than a rookie who’s never going to take a live snap during anything other than preseason.
by 9thevolution on Jun 18, 2010 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions
we draft a Center
high enough that he can challenge Heitmann for the job, get half the snaps in practice at least…Lord knows Heitmann doesn’t need them, dude knows his role. Baas is great as a stopgap but he’s only got 2 years on EH! That’s no future!
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I'd like to see if they could convert Boone into a center...
After all was said and done, a lot more got said than done.
that's a friggin huge center!
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Yea, he's a biggun...
But with Staley at 25, Iupati at 23, Rachal at 24, and Davis at 20, I’m hoping this works out to be an OL that’ll be together for the next millennium (or at least the next decade). All we need is someone to take over for Heitmann when he’s ready to hang it up, and I believe that Boone (23) has more potential than any other young lineman on our roster… so why not give it a try.
After all was said and done, a lot more got said than done.
I'd actually like to see Boone become the future backup OT
I think the should draft a center in 2 years or so.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
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by SportsChicken on Jun 20, 2010 1:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, and he’s not as good as Dan Williams, who would have been way higher up if not for the talent of this past draft. A premium NT is by far worth a 1st round pick. Especially because Cam Thomas was a top two-three round guy who just fell.
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I wanted Thomas in the 4th
and I think that’s perfect place to pick a NT, a true NT who played the position in college, which is rare.
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what? I just asked?
I didn’t feel like looking it up
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Not the question.
The “no way” as if there’s no precedence to taking a NT early.
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in my mind
besides, it’s going to be a DT you hope you can teach the NT spot to…you know he wont start year 1 unless he’s the most beastly beast that ever beasted.
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Heard a great point this morning
on Sirius NFL radio, Carl Banks said:
“yeah we’re good WITH him on our team, but we’re OK without him and maybe it’s time to rebuild that position”
Obviously this is for 2011, after we go to the playoffs. But point being it’s a growing pain sometimes that you can deal with.
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sorta along the lines of Mankins
he’s a great Guard, but he’s one of 5 guys who make up that unit. The Patriots wont crumble without him.
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Pats already have no running game...
and a replacement guard can rely on the guys around him. That loss wouldn’t hurt them as bad as Franklin being a no-show for us. Our LDE already gets pushed around too frequently, so we can’t have two of three guys not pulling their weight and still be effective.
by 9thevolution on Jun 17, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
I think if Franklin was out for one reason or another
McDonald/Balmer becomes an even bigger issue.
"I will speak at times, when it's necessary, but I don't believe in talking just because you can." - P-52
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Bigger as in which one is going to step up and replace Soap
Soap is too often pushed around and can’t contain, so one of them would have to start doing that immediately and on a consistent basis. I don’t think it’s a problem because I believe Franklin is going to be at camp, but worst case, our DL might be in trouble if at least one person doesn’t step up and prove he’s capable of starting. Be it Balmer, McDonald or RJF, I don’t care, but one of them better show me something.
by 9thevolution on Jun 17, 2010 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
bigger as in SOMEONE has to step up
because as you said, we can’t have two potential weaknesses on the DL
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Our defense would almost immediately go from top 10 to potentially bottom 10
Might seem like a drastic swing, but it could and would happen at least early in the season. Then you can say goodbye to the playoffs and somebody’s job.
by 9thevolution on Jun 17, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
It wouldn’t drop that far because our linebackers are so good at getting around the ball, getting to the line, etc.
Top Tip for England's next game: If you're watching on Sky+ press pause and wait a second before pressing play. Being a second or two behind the live play will give you that authentic Emile Heskey viewpoint.
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by James Brady on Jun 17, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
OK maybe overexagerated
But the decline would be apparent.
by 9thevolution on Jun 17, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Agree.
Top Tip for England's next game: If you're watching on Sky+ press pause and wait a second before pressing play. Being a second or two behind the live play will give you that authentic Emile Heskey viewpoint.
Stalk me on Twitter!
On one hand….NT is the cornerstone of a 3-4 defense and if you don’t get production out of that position in a 3-4 you get run on.
On the other hand…Before last season Franklin was a huge question mark and a lot of people were hoping we’d draft B.J. Raji. The position was also drafted lower as a group than must pundits expected, leading me to believe that it’s not as hard a position to fill as it may have been a few years ago.
Bottom line…As fans, we won’t know we’ll get out of RJF until we see him in some games. Sorry, anything that comes out of anyone on the 49ers staff about a 2nd string player’s great progress in mini-camp while the starter is voluntarily absent and trying to get a big contract is to be taken with a big bag of salt.
I know what I'm talking about, I started at right guard for the 1992 College Park Falcons.
but he's FREAKY JEAN!
FJIOF!
"I will speak at times, when it's necessary, but I don't believe in talking just because you can." - P-52
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