The Impact of 1st-Round Offensive Linemen: I. A History Lesson
AUTHOR'S NOTE: It's been about 3 months since I posted last (work = grind), so far any newbies out there, here's a brief introduction. I'm Niners Nation's resident statistics geek. Why? Because Fooch found me lurking over @ Maiocco's blog a couple of years ago. Background-wise, I've got a Masters in Sport Psychology, have published several studies using advanced statistics in peer-reviewed journals, and had the good fortune of presenting a study on NFL home-field advantage @ the 2007 New England Symposium on Statistics in Sports, held at -- wait for it -- Harvard University. Definitely my crowning statistical achievement to date. In terms of my 49er credentials, I've been a fan since January 20, 1985, when the dynasty destroyed my hometown Dolphins in Super Bowl XIX...on my birthday. That'll definitely get a kid to start rethinking his fan affiliations. Anyway, hope you enjoy my posts.
This offseason has, in my mind, easily been the quietest in recent memory for the 49ers. No "will Nolan be back next year" talk. No offensive coordinator being hired/fired. No WRs refusing to show up for work. Basically, the two main on-the-field storylines in Ninerland over the past 6 months have been (a) the potential positive impact of OC stability for one, Alexander Douglas Smith, and (b) the potential positive impact of drafting 2 offensive linemen in the 1st round of this year's draft. I'll save a statistical discussion of the former for another time. Today, and for the rest of the week, I'll be focusing on the latter in a 3-part series investigating just how much of a positive impact we can expect from the addition of Anthony Davis and Mike Iupati:
- Part 1 will be the least stat-intensive of the 3 posts, and will simply consist of a brief description of 1st-round OL picks and the teams that have drafted them since 1994.
- Part 2 will be the most stat-intensive of the 3 posts, and will test the theory that drafting an OL in the 1st round makes a team's offense better via improvements in run- and/or pass-blocking.
- Part 3 will be a little less stat-intensive than Part 2, and will test the theory -- specifically addressed in the 49ers' chapter of this year's Football Outsiders Almanac -- that OL continuity is a good thing (presumably via improvements in run- and/or pass-blocking.
Before I get into the meat of the matter, let me just clear up one thing in advance. This series of posts is not an investigation into whether teams should take OLs in the 1st round. Being that this is Niners Nation, I know there's a sentiment out there that the team did much better when they were employing a McKittrick-based strategy of drafting undersized, athletic OL in the later rounds, rather than the gargantuan maulers they've selected early in recent drafts. While I might be sympathetic to this argument to a certain degree, the fact of the matter is that, in the context of the entire NFL, teams are going to continue drafting OLs in the 1st round in perpituity, whether the stats suggest they should or otherwise. As others like Brian Burke (Advanced NFL Stats) and Benjamin Alamar (University of California Berkeley) have repeatedly shown, whether or not a particular NFL strategy is successeful seems to have little to no bearing on whether or not NFL teams employ it. Unlike in baseball, there's little to no Moneyball being played in NFL team headquarters these days. So, rather than reading these posts with the thought, "Was drafting a 1st-round OL the right thing for the 49ers to do?" I suggest you instead read them with the thought, "Now that the Niners have drafted 2 first-round OLs, what can we expect in terms of their impact this year and beyond."
OK, on to the meat...
DESCRIBING THE OLs
Since 1994 -- which, for those of you who don't know, I frequently use as an NFL era marker -- there have been a total of 78 OLs taken in the 1st round of the draft. Of these 78, 63 were drafted as college Ts, 9 were drafted as college Gs, and 6 were drafted as college Cs. Obviously, once these OLs joined their NFL teams, many of them switched positions. But the above breakdown just gives you a general sense that college T is where teams focus their 1st round OL picks. In that context, whereas drafting Davis was in line with recent NFL trends, drafting Iupati clearly was not.
Using Pro Football Reference's Approximate Value (AV) statistic, which basically assigns a -- you guessed it -- approximate numerical value for each player in each NFL season, we can see what the average career looks like for an OL drafted in the 1st round. However, because many of the 1st-round OLs since 1994 are still playing, we need to adjust for number of years played. Let's call it AV per Yr, or AV/Yr. Below is a chart showing the average career performance (AV/Yr) by 1st-round OL's college position (Overall average = 6.14):

As you can see, it turns out that the 9 college Gs drafted in the 1st round since 1994 have had better careers, on average, than the 63 college Ts, and substantially better careers than the 6 college Cs. If we were to extrapolate these average careers to Davis and Iupati, we could say that Davis can be expected to be about as good as John Tait (KC, 1999; AV/Yr = 6.10), and Iupati can be expected to be about as good as Ruben Brown (BUF, 1995; AV/Yr = 7.15). I like the sound of that.
One aspect of the discussion thus far this offseason with regards to the Niners' OL picks has been along the lines of, "How long before they become full-time starters?" Well, if history is any guide, signs point to sooner rather than later. That's because, of the 78 1st-round OLs drafted since 1994, 57 became full-time starters in their rookie years, 70 were full-time starters by Year 2, and 73 were full-time starters by Year 3 (Note: full-time starter means 8 or more starts). So, to say this another way, the chances of Davis or Iupati being abject NFL failures are pretty slim. They appear even slimmer -- the chances, not Davis and Iupati themselves -- when you consider the following list, which are the five 1st-round OLs who did not start by Year 3 of their careers:
- Trezelle Jenkins (KC, 1995, Pick 31, AV/Yr = 0.33)
- Andre T. Johnson (WAS, 1996, Pick 30, AV/Yr = 0.00)
- Marc Colombo (CHI, 2002, Pick 29, AV/Yr = 4.57)
- Jason Smith (STL, 2009, Pick 2, Av/Yr = 1.00)
- Andre Smith (CIN, 2009, Pick 6, Av/Yr = 1.00)
From this list, we see that 2 of the 5 non-full-time starters haven't even been in the league 3 years, and another carved out a decent, albeit below average, career for himself after going to a different team. So, ignoring these 3 picks in our outright-bust probability, we arrive at the reality that 73 of 75, or 97.3%, of 1st-round OL picks start by Year 3.
The specific draft history of the 49ers tells a similar tale. Despite perhaps a conventional wisdom to the contrary, SF has selected only 2 OLs in the 1st round since 1994: Kwame Harris (ugh!) with Pick 26 in 2003 and Joey Staley with Pick 28 in 2007. Harris had a well-below average career (AV/Yr = 3.50), whereas Staley has played just slightly below average for Ts thus far in his career (AV/Yr = 5.33). And yet, despite the disparity in performance, they both were full-time starters by Year 3 (Harris = Year 3, Staley = Year 1).
Finally, one other way to approach the question, "What can we expect from Davis and Iupati?" is to look at the average performance of 1st-round OLs by pick number. Here's said info:

The sample sizes for each individual pick number here are pretty small (e.g., no OLs taken #9), so there's quite a bit of statistical noise in the chart. However, the white line is the trendline, and it shows what you'd expect: The higher the pick, the better the career. In fact, the correlation of pick and AVyr = -.410, which indicates a clear, albeit weak, trend. So, extrapolating the stats in the chart to Davis's and Iupati's potential, we might expect a career for Davis like that of, say, Tra Thomas (PHI, 1998; AV/Yr = 7.08); for Iupati, let's say a career like -- bingo -- Ruben Brown.
DESCRIBING THE TEAMS WHO DRAFTED THE OLs
For all of the analysis about the potential impact of Davis and Iupati, one thing I've noticed has been curiously absent from mention is the fact that we're talking about the impact of 2 OLs, not 1. Why this omission is important for the discussion is because it's unbelievably rare for the same team to draft 2 OLs in the same 1st round. Indeed, from 1994-2009, it happened only 1 time. Can you name that team? .................................Answer: The 2006 New York Jets took T D'Brickashaw Ferguson with the 4th pick of the draft and C Nick Mangold with Pick 29. In a later section of this post, I'll talk about what specifically happened to the Jets, but suffice it to say that, as difficult as it is to project how adding one 1st-round OL might impact a team, we're basically entering uncharted waters trying to project the impact of two.
Another interesting overlooked aspect of teams who drafted OLs from 1994-2009 is the fact that about half of the league drafted 2 or fewer OLs in that 16-year span! So, as much as the media seems to focus on OL in the 1st round, half of the league has basically ignored it for almost a generation. In fact, 3 teams -- the Cowboys, Chargers, and Oilers/Titans -- actually have ignored it. Overall, here's the list of NFL teams by how many OLs they took in the 1st round from 1994-2009:
- 5 OLs (2 teams) -- Lions, Seahawks
- 4 OLs (3 teams) -- Chiefs, Eagles, Rams
- 3 OLs (12 teams) -- Cardinals, Ravens (CLE/BAL), Bills, Panthers, Bengals, Browns, Packers, Dolphins, Vikings, Saints, Raiders, Steelers
- 2 OLs (8 teams) -- Bears, Broncos, Jaguars, Patriots, Jets, 49ers, Buccaneers, Redskins
- 1 OL (4 teams) -- Falcons, Texans, Colts, Giants
- 0 OLs (3 teams) -- Cowboys, Chargers, Titans (HOU/TEN)
If you must know, 5 of the 6 groups above all averaged about 8 wins per season from 1994-2009, so the stats do back up the point that 1st-round OLs aren't a panacea (See Detroit Lions). But, as I said before, I'm not presenting this info to discuss strategy. Rather, I'm simply making the point that, when half the league hasn't drafted more than two 1st-round OL in 16 years, trying to project the impact of drafting 2 OL in the same year is like trying to play cricket with 1 dart and only knowing where half of the numbers are.
Although it's usually discussed in the context of QBs, another important thing to know about the teams who drafted 1st-round OLs is how good they were. In other words, what kind of team environments were these OLs walking into when they signed their contracts? Conventional wisdom might say that a 1st-round OL would be better off going to a good team than a bad team, but, as we saw earlier, OLs picked towards the end of the 1st round (aka went to good teams) have tended to have worse careers than those picked towards the top of the draft. Of course, on the other hand, conventional wisdom might say that good teams already have a good OL, so they don't need to draft linemen in the 1st round. Ah, the beauty of conventional wisdom. Well, here are the stats (Remember: we're talking about 77 teams who drafted 1st-rd OLs since 1994):
|
Prev Yr Success |
Total |
% of OL-Pick Tms |
% of Same-Success Tms |
|
Made Playoffs |
28 |
37.3% |
14.6% |
|
Made Conference Rd |
8 |
10.6% |
12.5% |
|
Made Super Bowl |
3 |
4.0% |
9.4% |
|
Won Super Bowl |
2 |
2.7% |
12.5% |
As the table shows, about 40% of the OLs taken in the 1st round went to teams that made the playoffs the previous year. However, of all playoff teams from 1993-2008 (See "% of same-success tms" column), only about 15% drafted an OL in the 1st round of the next draft. This compares quite nicely with the 16.3% of all non-playoff teams having drafted a 1st-round OL in the next draft. Notice also how these "same-success" percentages stay pretty consistent the deeper a team goes in the playoffs. So, bottom line is that there's no recent history of 1st-round OLs going mostly to bad teams or mostly to good teams. The quality of the team hasn't had any bearing on whether or not they draft an OL in the 1st round of the next draft.
To be a bit more quantitatively precise about this, here's a table showing the average previous-year stats for teams that drafted OL in the 1st round (Aside: If you're not familar with the stats in this table, and you plan on reading any of my posts in the future please get acquainted with them here. They're advanced stats put out by Football Outsiders, and I use them because they're the best in the business.):
|
Previous Yr Stats |
OL-Pick Tms |
Harris |
Staley |
|
Wins |
7.64 |
10 |
7 |
|
OFF DVOA |
-4.76% |
21.3% |
-7.5% |
|
Pass OFF DVOA |
2.02% |
28.5% |
-5.3% |
|
Run OFF DVOA |
-2.17% |
24.4% |
1.5% |
|
ALY |
3.98 |
4.41 |
4.42 |
|
ASR |
7.43% |
4.3% |
6.8% |
This table again shows how the average team that takes a 1st-round OL is, well, pretty average. They average about 8 wins, their pass OFF is a tad bit above average, but that's offset by a run OFF that's a tad bit below average. Furthermore, their run- and pass-blocking stats are just about average as well. Again, this is more of the same information telling us that 1st-round OLs are drafted by good and bad teams alike. And my point here is that the quality of the team a 1st-round OL is drafted by is one more piece of information that we can't rely on when projecting how Davis and Iupati are going to impact the 2010 49ers.
Incidentally, the 49ers specific drafting history also says the same thing. As the final 2 columns in the above table show, Harris was drafted onto a pretty damn good team and sucked, whereas Staley was drafted into a below average team and, as mentioned previously, has carved out an average career thus far.
And finally, as it relates to Davis and Iupati, they're joining a team that had an average number of wins (8), a below-average OFF DVOA (-10.2%), a below-average Pass OFF DVOA (-8.2%), an average Run OFF DVOA (1.5%), and an OL that was terrible at run blocking (ALY = 3.50) and close-to-terrible at pass blocking (ALY = 8.1%). Of course, this is just to say that the type of team they're joining suggests they could end up being average (ala Staley) or really, really bad (ala Harris). How's that for hard-hitting statistical analysis?
DESCRIBING WHAT HAPPENED TO THE TEAMS WHO DRAFTED THE PLAYERS
As I'm going to delve into this a lot more deeply in Part 2, I'll limit the commentary in this section. But one thing to keep in mind in terms of my methods here (and in Parts 2 and 3), I'm only including 1st-round OL who were full-time starters in the given year that I'm talking about. It makes little sense to me to include in an analysis of "potential impact" those players who weren't full-time starters. In other words, it's hard to have an impact while riding the pine, so those 1st-round OL were also relegated to the bench in my analyses.
Below is a table showing the statistical impact of a 1st-round OL draft pick who was a full-time starter in their rookie year. It compares Year 1 team stats to Year 0 team stats, i.e. the team's stats the year before the OL was drafted:
|
Yr 1 vs. Yr 0 |
OL-Pick Tms |
Harris |
Staley |
|
Playoff Graduate |
7 |
NA |
No |
|
Playoff Dropout |
12 |
NA |
No |
|
Conf Rd Graduate |
1 |
NA |
No |
|
SB Rd Graduate |
2 |
NA |
No |
|
SB Win Graduate |
1 |
NA |
No |
|
Wins |
-0.49 |
NA |
-2 |
|
OFF DVOA |
+1.89% |
NA |
-23.8% |
|
Pass OFF DVOA |
+2.87% |
NA |
-35.5% |
|
Run OFF DVOA |
+1.77% |
NA |
-4.1% |
|
ALY |
+0.02 |
NA |
-0.23 |
|
ASR |
-0.15% |
NA |
+3.5% |
|
Directional ALY |
-0.15 |
NA |
+0.31 |
First, only 7 non-playoff teams who drafted 1st-round OL that became full-time starters in their rookie season went on to make the playoffs that season; only 2 teams improved to Conference Round playoff teams (1996 Packers & 2003 Panthers); and only the 1996 Packers, after having drafted T Jon Michels in the 1st round of the 1996 NFL Draft, went on to win the Super Bowl in their OL pick's rookie season.
On average, most of the teams' offensive stats improved, but (a) they won fewer games, and (b) none of the "improvements" were statistically significant at the 90% confidence level. However, what was statistically significant was the gigantic turdburger cooked up by the 2007 49ers after they drafted Staley. Of course, at least he was a full-time starter, which can't be said for Harris.
Let's move on to a comparison between team stats for 1st-round OL full-time starters in Year 2 vs. teams stats for the year prior to that OL being drafted (i.e., Yr 2 vs. Yr 0):
|
Yr 2 vs. Yr 0 |
OL-Pick Tms |
Harris |
Staley |
|
Playoff Graduate |
7 |
NA |
No |
|
Playoff Dropout |
11 |
NA |
No |
|
Conf Rd Graduate |
7 |
NA |
No |
|
SB Rd Graduate |
3 |
NA |
No |
|
SB Win Graduate |
1 |
NA |
No |
|
Wins |
-0.26 |
NA |
0 |
|
OFF DVOA |
+2.60% |
NA |
-3.8% |
|
Pass OFF DVOA |
+5.30% |
NA |
-2.9% |
|
Run OFF DVOA |
-0.64% |
NA |
-4.3% |
|
ALY |
+0.02 |
NA |
-0.14 |
|
ASR |
-0.66% |
NA |
+2.6% |
|
Directional ALY |
-0.27 |
NA |
-0.23 |
In Year 2, the playoff graduate rate stays exactly the same at 7, but, all of a sudden, an equal number of teams made it to the Conference Championship game after not having made it there the season before drafting their OL in the 1st round. In addition, 3 teams became Super Bowl participants (2000 New York Giants, 2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, & 2008 Arizona Cardinals); but, again, only 1 team, the 2002 Buccaneers won the Super Bowl 2 years after drafting a 1st-round OL, T Kenyatta Walker.
On average, we still see most everything statistical getting better except for wins. However, in Year 2, two of these improvements (the ones in bold) are statistically different from zero, meaning that they're larger than what you'd expect from random chance. So, we can say that when a team drafts an OL in the 1st round, their Pass OFF improves signficantly if that OL is a full-time starter in Year 2; and that improvement appears to be due to a concomitant improvement in pass protection. Of course, there's also the curious finding that these teams get significantly worse blocking in the specific direction of where their 1st-round OL is starting along the line (i.e., Directional ALY goes down).
For the 49ers, Year 2 was much better than Year 1 vis-a-vis the addition of Staley, but still no win improvement and no playoffs. And, of course, Harris was still manning the water table in 2004.
Finally, the Year 3 comparisons:
|
Yr 3 vs. Yr 0 |
OL-Pick Tms |
Harris |
Staley |
|
Playoff Graduate |
12 |
No |
No |
|
Playoff Dropout |
14 |
Yes |
No |
|
Conf Rd Graduate |
6 |
No |
No |
|
SB Rd Graduate |
3 |
No |
No |
|
SB Win Graduate |
3 |
No |
No |
|
Wins |
-0.03 |
-6 |
1 |
|
OFF DVOA |
+2.13% |
-63.3% |
-2.5% |
|
Pass OFF DVOA |
+3.05% |
-86.4% |
-2.9% |
|
Run OFF DVOA |
+1.57% |
-37.8% |
0.0% |
|
ALY |
+0.05 |
-0.83 |
-0.92 |
|
ASR |
-0.93% |
+5.8% |
+1.3% |
|
DirALY |
-0.24 |
-1.41 |
-1.54 |
Year 3 seems to be where teams begin to see the team "impact" of their 1st-round OL picks. Specifically, although basically the same number of teams dropped out of the playoffs from Year 0 to Year 3 as in previous years, nearly twice as many teams made the playoff leap. Furthermore, whereas Conference and Super Bowl Round improvement was similar to the Year 2 comparison, 3 teams won the Super Bowl: 1996 Green Bay Packers after drafting T Aaron Taylor in 1994; 1999 St. Louis Rams after drafting T Orlando Pace in 1997; and 2001 New England Patriots after drafting C Damien Woody in 1999.
What's interesting, however, is that these success stories contradict what happens on average. Namely, teams don't win more games, and their overall offensive stats don't improve significantly. In addition, whereas their pass protection gets significantly better, run-blocking in the specific OL's direction gets significantly worse. So, although it might appear that drafting an OL in the 1st round is what's "causing" the improvement in Year 3, it's hard to see -- statistically speaking -- a chain of events leading from drafting the OL to improving the team's general OL performance to improving the teams' general OFF performance to winning more games to winning the Super Bowl. But that's the topic of Part 2, so I'll leave it there for now.
In terms of the 49ers, there were obviously no Super Bowl championships or playoff appearances in Year 3 of the Harris and Staley eras. But, hey, at least Harris finally became a full-time starter! And what a glorious thing it was, what with that 86.4% decline in pass OFF efficiency! And check out how much he helped the pass protection! In 2002, the year before he was drafted, the 49ers' ASR was 4.3%. When 2005 came around and the depleted roster forced Harris into a starting role, their ASR more than doubled to a this-is-how-you-destroy-a-rookie-QB's-confidence-and-oh-by-the-way-get-him-killed 10.1%! And, regardless of what I may have said in the previous paragraph about not seeing the causal chain from player to team stat, we all know Harris was entirely to blame on this one.
So, in summing this section up, what do all these fancy stat tables mean? Well, basically, when a team drafts an OL in the 1st round, don't expect much in the way of team improvement in Year 1, and expect a little bit more in Years 2-3, but don't assume the team improvement is due to the impact of drafting the player. As this relates to the 2010 49ers, what I'm saying here is, "Don't assume that drafting Davis and Iupati will make the 49ers that much better on offense this season." There's just nowhere near enough statistical evidence to support that assumption.
Oh, I almost forgot...what happened to the Jets after drafting 2 OLs in the 1st round of the 2006 draft, the only time a team drafted 2 OLs in the same first round between 1994-2009? Well, both started in their rookie season, and had an immediate "impact." Their pass protection improved considerably (-3.7%), which presumably led to a massive improvement in pass OFF efficiency (+47.1%), which presumably led to a 6-win improvement and a playoff berth. Furthermore, these improvements basically carried over to Years 2 and 3. So, if there's a poster child for the theory adopted in Santa Clara this past Spring, it's those 2006 Jets. Being that they're the only precedent, the optimists (or believers) among us will hold a death grip on that sample size of 1. And, really, I don't blame you. We're fans first after all. Kwame Harris was our future!
BOTTOM LINE
So what have we learned today?
- You can pretty much eliminate the possibility that either Davis or Iupati will be a flat-out bust in the form of Trezelle Jenkins and Andre T. Johnson. It's likely at least 1 will be starting this season, and it's almost certain that both will be starting by next season. It's also likely that both will end up having productive careers at the NFL level.
- The success (or lack thereof) of the 2009 49ers has no influence whatsoever on the potential impact of Davis and Iupati in 2010 or beyond.
- If you believe in sample sizes larger than 1, don't assume that adding Davis and Iupati will lead to an offensive renaissance for the 49ers this season. It's much more likely to happen in 2011 or 2012.
- If you believe in sample sizes equal to 1, you are a closet Jets fan.
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Comments
He lives!
Now I’ll go read the article so i can make an intelligent comment.
Logic merely enables one to be wrong with authority
I know, huh?
I’m like, waiting for my food and drink to get here so I can sit back and read this whole thing.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
might want to emphasize the...
“drink” portion of “food and drink”…i suggest jameson, for obvious reasons.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 19, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
The girl thinks it's funny whenever she brings me one of those.
Still… Newcastle > All.
And I really am waiting to read this until my pizza gets here.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
Then you can use it...
as a Pie Chart to work things out. Ok that was a groaner.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Jul 19, 2010 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
He meant "drank"
as in Purple flavored
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jul 19, 2010 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Without Drank, you guys wouldn't get Nuggets. Seriously.
http://www.theluxuryspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/drankcan.jpg
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
Great Information...
Hope you don’t mind, but I just skipped straight to the “bottom line” section. :)
and...
our second (Mays) and our third (Bowmann) and possibly even our 6th (Williams and Dixon)
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Jul 20, 2010 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I feel like Nate Davis trying to learn the playbook.....
I could read it 100 times and still not figure it all out.
see jayhov's comment above...
just skip straight to the bottom line.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 19, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Now be honest
How long did it really take you to write this up?
by ericalancanty on Jul 19, 2010 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
longer...
than i’d care to admit…but that’s my style. i know i’m setting up a “that’s what she said” here, but most of the length is in the charts and tables.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 19, 2010 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, it looked like you put some serious effort in it.
It is very informative, but I’m not as smart as you are, so some of the things I didn’t understand. But great job and thanks for the extra effort.
by ericalancanty on Jul 19, 2010 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions
thanks...
but, of course, this isn’t an IQ contest. if it was, i’d easily lose out to mr. “i’m taking the bar because i’m a smarty pants” guy (aka fooch).
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 19, 2010 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah but look at the statistics
the suicide and other rates are much higher for lawyers than statisticians. (Not wishing that on you my buddy Fooch just trying to cheer Danny up) :-)
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Jul 19, 2010 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Pretty sure I'm smarter than all of you.
And I’ll ban any of you if you disagree. This is a dictatorship now that Fooch is gone.
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
Yes Sir
goes shuffling off muttering Fuhrer this!
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Jul 19, 2010 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I DISAGREE
WANNA FIGHT ABOUT IT?!?!
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jul 19, 2010 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions
enjoy your ban
And then God created Saturn... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
Twitter me and what not.
What about narrowing down the scope of impact analysis to 1st round OTs and/or Gs taken by teams with terrible/below average offensive lines and/or offenses instead of the entire spectrum of teams & situations?
We know our teams situation, bad offensive line and returning QB who can be qualified as playing around the mendoza line. There has be a few existing examples since ’94 to compare.
ask and ye shall receive
here’s the list of the bottom 10 Yr 0 ASRs for teams with 1st-Rd OL full-time starters in their rookie year:
Kenyatta Walker (T)
Branden Albert (T)
Joe Thomas (T)
Tra Thomas (T)
Jeff Backus (T)
Kyle Turley (T)
Orlando Pace (T)
D’Brickashaw Ferguson (T)
Nick Mangold ©
Mo Collins (T)
here are the change stats from Yr 0 to Yr 1 (counting the 2006 jets only 1 time):
Average OFF DVOA change in Yr 1 = +4.08%
Average Pass OFF DVOA change in Yr 1 = +8.36%
Average ASR change in Yr 1 = -1.41%
pretty big changes for the better. of course, almost all of that is accounted for by the 2006 Jets, Joe Thomas (CLE), Orlando Pace (STL), and Kyle Turley (NO). also, it translated into +0.15 wins, 1 playoff berth, and 0 deep runs in the playoffs. so, my point still holds: they may get better statistically, but that doesn’t necessarily translate into a more successful season team-wise. oh, and also, don’t forget 2 things from a statistical point of view:
1. when we limit the sample in this way, we’re getting into “i’m a closet jets fan” territory.
2. focusing in on the worst teams in terms of pass protection (or anything else for that matter) necessarily leads to a floor effect. these teams had to get better because they were so horrible to begin with. i could easily argue regression to the mean here. and, to tell you the truth, based on almost every analysis of DVOA i’ve done at the year-to-year team level, the dirty little secret of the NFL is that there’s seeeeeeerious regression to the mean going on.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 19, 2010 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions
All you need to know is this
Joe Thomas carried Derek Anderson to a Pro Bowl
/thread
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jul 19, 2010 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I think for the most part also
The teams that drafted 1st round linemen weren’t knocking on the door of the playoffs with 2 of our 3 weakest positions being on the O-line. Iupati (and to a lesser extent Davis) are set to make a big impact replacing our weakest links.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jul 19, 2010 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions
actually, i could argue...
that, in 2006, the 49ers were a team “knocking on the door of the playoffs” and had at least 2 of their “weakest links” on the OL (jonas jennings and kwame harris). and that’s not even including a player i’m presuming you’re saying is one of their current weakeast links, adam snyder, who actually started 6 games that season. but let’s just forget about what happened in 2007, OK?
one more thing…while i don’t/didn’t have the time to go about counting where each of the 77 teams’ weakest links were, there were definitely plenty of teams who were “knocking on the door of the playoffs.” that’s suggested pretty clearly by the fact that the average team who drafted drafted an OL in the first round had about 7.5 wins the previous season. in other words, “knocking on the door of the playoffs” pretty much describes “the teams that drafted 1st round linemen” to a tee.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 19, 2010 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions
and i'd add that...
the very fact of them drafting an OL in the 1st round suggests that OL was a need of some sort for these teams. sure, not for all of them. but i’d guess we’re talking about a pretty descent percentage.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 19, 2010 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh and thanks...
that actually makes me feel better about things. If we end up with something like DaBrick and Gold or even better to a degree Ruben Brown and Tra Thomas or heck even one and a half Damien Woody’s that would be sweet. On a very nonstatistical basis I’ve listend to Davis in a few interviews and like his attitude.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Jul 19, 2010 6:00 PM PDT reply actions
Couple of thoughts
I’m assuming you’re picking 1994 due to the advent of free agency?
This correlates with my own bust predictions of all first rounders where I found that interior linemen tend to perform better than tackles when taken in the first round.
It seems to me that the reason you see little improvement in rookie’s first seasons is because they are rookies. There’s a learning curve going from college to the NFL, despite how talented a player you are. There will be mistakes made and these guys will be having a rough time of it until they get the hang of things.
Like you I’ll take a Tra Thomas and a Ruben Brown on our team, though I still think Iupati will be closer to a Stephen Hutchinson (yeah I’m a fanboy—sue me).
Of course the main thing in this is that there are only two teams who have picked two offensive linemen in the first round, so there’s no telling the impact this will have on our team.
Logic merely enables one to be wrong with authority
this
Of course the main thing in this is that there are only two teams who have picked two offensive linemen in the first round, so there’s no telling the impact this will have on our team.
exactly my point. thanks for summing it up in about 1,000 fewer words than i did. :-)
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 19, 2010 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Ruben 9 times to the Pro Bowl, Steve 6x to the Pro bowl :-) Heck I think I can deal with either.
And Tra went 3 times. If we get that out of them and one time (or more) of Staley I’d be pleased as punch myself. :-)
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Jul 19, 2010 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
oh, and...
yeah, 1994 because of free agency/salary cap & that’s conveniently as far back as DVOA goes (actually goes back to 1993 now, but whatever).
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 19, 2010 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions
You had me at
we could say that Davis can be expected to be about as good as John Tait (KC, 1999; AV/Yr = 6.10), and Iupati can be expected to be about as good as Ruben Brown (BUF, 1995; AV/Yr = 7.15).
I didn’t stop reading there, but I certainly couldn’t stop thinking about how nice it would be if Davis and Iupati pan out to have such productive careers. I don’t have anything intelligent to say or add, nor can I find any reason to debate this topic (not that it takes a rocket scientist to fool me).
by Andrew Davidson on Jul 19, 2010 6:32 PM PDT reply actions
making a
…favorable statistical comparison for a 49er player is just a cheap parlor trick on my part to get everyone in the comments section swooning.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 19, 2010 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL well I have an ingrown habit being a long time Niner fan.
Every time I see Kwame Harris mentioned I just put it in my head that they actually said “Harris Barton” and smile gleefully and look in the stands for John Candy. :-) (or go and have some candy or heck just grab another beer)
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Jul 19, 2010 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions
seeing those busts makes a happy alex

a sad alex

Dashon, Mays, and Bamm Bamm will get the record for most decapitations in one season
by MichaelClutchtree on Jul 19, 2010 6:51 PM PDT reply actions
uncharted waters indeed
I’m also curious how the addition of a new OL coaching staff will play into things. I don’t know if the ’06 Jets also changed OL coach, but I know they made wholesale coaching changes, and it seemed to be a positive move.
Statistically, would it be feasible to analyze DVOA variations in years following a coaching change…independent of the draft? I know that info is harder to come by, since OL coaches aren’t exactly big news makers. Also, it would be interesting to see DVOA variations on teams Solari has coached.
i actually attempted to do that...
but it’s basically next-to-impossible to find the identitities of OL coaches prior to 2000 or so. i was able to obtain info on head coach and OC changes for all of these draft picks, but i’m saving the OC part of things for a “what’s this BS about OC continuity helping alex smith?” post sometime soon.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 20, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
I was wondering about this...
…because, IMHO Jimmy Rae SUCKS DONKEY BALLS.
Giving Smith 2 years of the same playbook/system is the important thing. I give little credence to JR’s fine stylings….
Jimmy Raye is not the most orignal of individuals agreed.
He and Robin Williams are not going to trade off in an improv, but he did do an ok job at changing directions last year to get us in a better position to come out on the good last year. That is something that neither Nolan nor Martz were really good at. Trust me I’m not a huge Jimmy joe jim bob Raye but he did show he is willing to change direction in midstream a bit and a bit of stability is what is needed right now to give the team a bit of feeling at least of not standing on quicksand.
by ChesapeakeBay9er on Jul 20, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
p.s.
there was a considerable amount of HC & OC turnover in the OL’s 1st year. less HC turnover w/ time, but OC turnover continued through Year 3.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 20, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for the article
Always look forward to your work, it’s nice to have good work to get through the intolerable dead periods of offseason.
by Deelron on Jul 20, 2010 9:15 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Awesome read, Danny
I’m excited for the second installment.
by mr. instigator on Jul 20, 2010 11:25 AM PDT reply actions

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