Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

2011 NFL Draft: Von Miller Leads Football Outsiders SackSEER Projections

Photo

Last week, Ninjames put together an excellent look at what appears to be a strong class of pass rushing linebackers in the 2011 NFL Draft. It's fitting then that Football Outsiders produced their annual SackSEER results for the incoming rookie class of pass rushers. For those who've never heard of SackSEER, it is a model meant to project the sack totals of highly drafted 4-3 defensive ends and 3-4 outside linebackers in their first five years in the NFL. Nathan Forster, the man who developed the model, indicated it is composed of four metrics:

[T]he prospect's vertical leap, short shuttle time, per-game sack productivity in college (with certain adjustments), and missed games of NCAA eligibility.

Based on the metric, SackSEER apparently would have predicted success for Mario Williams and Shawne Merriman and predicted struggles for Robert Ayers and Jarvis Moss. As Forster admitted, last year was not a good one for SackSEER's projections due to struggles by Jerry Hughes and the success of Carlos Dunlap and Jason Pierre-Paul. Of course it's only been one year, so we'll see how those players move on.

I spoke with Florida Danny about SackSEER and he took some time to put together his assessment of the model, looking at both positives and negatives. I've posted his comments after the jump.

Even with last year's struggles, I still wanted to take a look at SackSEER for this year, given the fact that a guy like Von Miller could very well end up in the 49ers lap at the number seven pick. I mention Miller specifically because SackSEER projects him out as the best of the bunch at the top of the draft. They project Miller to have 36.4 sacks through his first five seasons, which averages out to 7.28 per game year.

Star-divide

In addressing Miller, Forster acknowledges that the projection doesn't address some of the issues that concern folks, such as:

[It] does nothing to address concerns about Miller's size and his ability to hold the point against the run. Size at the edge rusher position has been tricky. Prospects with good size and good SackSEER projections rarely bust, and there have been plenty of players such as Aaron Maybin and Manny Lawson who end up playing down to their size despite impressive athleticism. However, some of the best edge rushers have been undersized, and often severely so. Most recently, Clay Matthews took the NFL by storm despite weighing only 240 pounds at the Combine, and Trent Cole and Robert Mathis have been outstanding despite being well south of the 240-pound mark on draft day.

Although an injury or struggles against the run could certainly derail Miller's career, Miller has the potential to become an elite player at his position.

Outside linebacker Justin Houston is projected with the second most sacks over the next year five years. The rest of the top prospects don't approach the level of awfulness projected for a guy like Jason Pierre-Paul. The system views this as a solid class at the top.

The system has one potential sleeper in Nevada's Dontay Moch thanks to his solid college production and vertical leap. They view him as worth a third round pick, which would bring him down from some of the second round projections we've seen for him at times this offseason.

Once again, you can check out FO's SackSEER projections HERE, and view Florida Danny's thoughts on the model below. What do folks think of some of these projections?

Positives

1) With an R-squared of .42, meaning that the model explains 42% of the statistical variation in sack totals during a player's first 5 NFL season, I'm pretty confident that the 4 variables making up SackSEER are predictive above and beyond other variables that might be intuitive (e.g., 40 times, bench press, draft pick, etc).

2) Relatedly, the 4 variables that make up SackSEER make perfect sense from a theoretical perspective:

a. Vertical jump, as Nate Forster mentions, is a measure of explosive strength in the lower body. Exploding off the line is exactly the kind of physical attribute you want to see from an edge rusher.

b. Short shuttle time, again as Nate mentions, is a measure of change-of-direction speed and hip flexibility. Again, these attributes make sense in terms of the physical movements required to be a good edge rusher.

c. Modified Sack Rate (SRAM) is an adjusted measure of college production, and we know that, in pretty much every type of task performance, past behavior is indicative of future behavior.

d. Missed games is a measure of both injury risk and amount of experience doing the very thing the player's going to be asked to do in the NFL. Again, the more experience you have at executing a task, the better you're generally going to be at that task in the future. Also, being injury-prone is obviously going to reduce productivity.

Negatives

Here's what I don't like (and they're both methodological critiques based on the info Nate explicitly stated about his methods in FOA 2010):

1) Far more edge rushers taken in the draft have ended up on the lower end of the NFL productivity spectrum than on the higher end. In other words, the performance distribution isn't bell-shaped; it's skewed. Statistically speaking, simple linear regression isn't optimal in this situation because it ends up being far better at predicting the highly-populated end of the spectrum rather than the sparsely populated end. Not surprisingly, this is exactly what Nate says happens with SackSEER. He should have done some kind of mathematical transformation to the 5-year sack totals in order to bring them more in line with a bell-shaped distribution, thereby making simple linear regression the more optimal choice in terms of modeling.

2) To build the regression model, he used player data from 1999-2008. However, he didn't test the accuracy of the resulting model by trying to predict 5-year sack totals for players outside that 1999-2008 range. Therefore, the success of SackSEER might be idiosyncratic to the 1999-2008 data.

In regards to the two critiques, aren't necessarily big deals for 2 reasons:

1. Nate could have actually done the things I critiqued him for not doing, but just didn't include a discussion of it in the FOA 2010 chapter for the sake of brevity and/or because of the non-technical nature of the audience.

2. Not testing the model on data outside of 1999-2008 could have been because of insufficient data. I mean, I don't know off hand how far back official Combine data goes back. Also, from the research on college stats that I've done, I know there's a certain point around 1999 where it becomes prohibitively difficult to find accurate stats for players. Hell, I was looking at QBs, and was having difficulty finding stats. It could have easily been the case that finding stats for college edge rushers was next to impossible. But, like I said, he didn't discuss it in the FOA 2010 chapter, so I'm just left to assume he didn't even consider it. I could easily be wrong, though.

Comment 19 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

They project Miller to have 36.4 sacks through his first five seasons, which averages out to 7.28 per game?

You mean 7.28 sacks per year. That is not real high, but if we could get 6-10 extra sacks a year, that would be good. Statistics, though, will tell you any story you want to hear. The samllish sample size in years raises questions. It seems like older data would be available to check out the 90s…

by D.P on Apr 12, 2011 8:15 AM PDT reply actions  

in fact, here is a great statistic for all of you....

5/3 of all Americans are bad at fractions… yup.. 5/3. It’s true, I read it on the internet… :-)

by D.P on Apr 12, 2011 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

It’s possible they figured he’d end up going top 10 to Arizona. That way he plays against the 49ers’ offensive line twice a year and that could get his per-game average up above seven sacks … (jk) …

I have powers that you cannot begin to imagine.

by LondonNiner on Apr 12, 2011 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Carlos Dunlap had a good rookie year.

This sentence…

As Forster admitted, last year was not a good one for SackSEER’s projections due to struggles by Jerry Hughes and Carlos Dunlap, and the success of Jason Pierre-Paul.

should probably read:

As Forster admitted, last year was not a good one for SackSEER’s projections due to struggles by Jerry Hughes, and the success of Carlos Dunlap and Jason Pierre-Paul.

We don't need 8 in the box. We have 52 in the box.

by these3words on Apr 12, 2011 8:38 AM PDT reply actions  

Is this further evidence Von Miller won't bust?

What about Robert Quinn’s rating? It wasn’t a good one. For a projected Top 10 pick to have half the production of Von Miller and middle of pack rating isn’t a good sign.

by bignerd on Apr 12, 2011 11:26 AM PDT reply actions  

What is the formula for almost-sacks? Because Manny Lawson is awesome at that

by mcwagner on Apr 12, 2011 11:36 AM PDT via mobile reply actions  

Almost sacks = Pressures

Problem with pressure stats is teams publish the statistic themselves and all grade based on their own criteria. A guy like Lawson can be credited with 2 pressures after Sunday’s game than the coaching staff can bump it up to 6 pressures after Monday’s film session.

by bignerd on Apr 12, 2011 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

von miller is going to move to ILB after he busts at OLB

he will be the number two bust in the draft after cam fig newton

"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin

by HUNGRY HUNTER on Apr 12, 2011 12:07 PM PDT reply actions  

7 sacks a year

I don’t think I’d spend the #7 pick for 7 sacks a year.

by Ougadas on Apr 12, 2011 2:17 PM PDT reply actions  

Their sack total numbers seem conservative

Von Miller’s 5 year total of 36.4 puts him 7th best all time just ahead of Demarcus Ware.

Here is their original chart

by bignerd on Apr 12, 2011 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think Miller will live up to his draft position

Let me clear and say I don’t think Miller will be a terrible player or epic bust, I just don’t think he will live up to being a top-10 pick. I simply don’t think he will become a premiere pass rusher as a pro, and if I am drafting a 3-4 OLB in the top-10, that is what I want.

His best assets as a pass rusher are his great explosion at the snap and his speed to get around the edge. As a result, he will show flashes against tackles that struggle with speed off the edge. However, I think the step up in athleticism in offensive tackles from college to the pros will mean that he will struggle to consistently apply pressure using that speed.

His biggest problem is that he lacks functional playing strength. This shows up against the run where he is not able to anchor and drive through or disengage from blockers. He gets absolutely manhandled almost every time he tries to go one-on-one with a blocker, with even TEs being able to seal him or drive him back. The only times I see him make plays against the run are when he is able to knife in unblocked from the weakside or into a gap where a guard has pulled. He will struggle to stay on the field as a 3-down player as a result of his struggle against the rune. I believe his lack of anchor/strength will also show up in an inability to develop any sort of power move or bull-rush as a pro.

I could be wrong, but that is what I see in Von Miller. He scares me as a top-10 pick personally. I think Robert Quinn will be a much better pass rusher than Miller as a pro.

by TheRaven on Apr 12, 2011 4:08 PM PDT reply actions  

Well just to be fair...

The vast majority of Clay Matthews production has come when he can knife in unblocked.

Take that as either a plus for Von, or as a statement that Matthews is overrated and we should credit his stardom to Capers.

But at least Matthews can play the run.

by Ougadas on Apr 13, 2011 4:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think Matthews is simply stronger

He is no beast against the run, but he just had a stronger natural base to me even as a college player.

by TheRaven on Apr 13, 2011 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Media Requests please email ninersnation@gmail.com

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Site Decorum: Remember, We Are ALL 49er Fans

Recent FanPosts

Small
Concussions...
Small
Is Harbaugh lying or does he mean what he says?
872_small
Where have you seen 49er players?
Download2_small
Can the 49'ers Maintain their Turnover Differential in 2012?
Sfak_small
Why are you a 49er fan?
6a00e5500c77218833011168f234b4970c_small
FOX: "How To Save The Sport"
Small
Old Spice Patrick Willis Football ProCamp
Dave_small
Call For Moderators
Steve_young_small
Game Day Food

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Head Ball Coach

Dave_small David Fucillo

Howtheyscoredcat_small howtheyscored

313483_2054510893373_1562580382_31984672_1965025_n_small James Brady

Coordinator

Pirates_small smileyman

Bowman_avi_sm_small Tre9er

Assistant Coach

Pixies_logo_small (Florida) Danny Tuccitto

Memento-lies_small urnext

Me_on_beach_small WesHanson

Dylan_cannes_small Dylan DeSimone

Officiating Crew

Jackalope_card_small wjackalope

These3words_small these3words

Joe_and_bill_small twolfe2

428030_10150598134996875_112852666874_9167376_1157036734_n_small mikeinsp