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2011 NFL Draft: For the Love of Peyton, the Wonderlic is NOT Related to QB Performance!

AUTHOR'S NOTE: This is Part 1 of a 5-part series on predicting the career performance of NFL QBs. I'll be posting a new installment every day this week at 4 p.m. PDT.

A couple of years ago, I did a post detailing my re-analysis of David Lewin's QB prediction system, known as the Lewin Career Forecast (LCF), which projects the Defense-Adjusted Yards Above Replacement per Game (DYAR/G) for a QB taken in the first 2 rounds of the NFL draft based on that QB's college completion percentage (Comp%) and the number of games he started in college (GS). To spare you the week of living you'd lose if you went back and read that novel-length post, we basically learned that, although college Comp% and GS do predict NFL performance, the margin of error for the predictions is pretty huge because of the small sample size, and there's the slight user-unfriendliness problem of "What the heck is DYAR/G, and what are the odds anyone's going to know what I'm talking about if I bring it up in an argument about QB draft picks?" To solve these problems, I suggested (a) heavy dose of statistical humility when making LCF-based predictions, and (b) using fantasy points per game (FFPts/G) as the prediction metric instead of DYAR/G.

Well, it's been 2 years, and there's a decent chance that the 49ers might actually take a QB with one of their first 2 picks next week, so I figured now is as good a time as any to take another look at the LCF, to check out if some other variables besides Comp% and GS are predictive, and to step back and have a more philosophical discussion about the general idea of trying to predict QB performance in the first place. First up, let's talk about the Wonderlic.

After the jump, I tell you why Wonderlic scores should not have any place in a discussion about whether or not high QB draft picks are going to be successful in the NFL...

Star-divide

I'm going to go ahead and assume you all know what the Wonderlic (full name, Wonderlic Cognitive Ability Test nee Wonderlic Personnel Test) is. If you don't, click on that handy link. In the context of projecting college QBs into the NFL, the Wonderlic invariably seems to find its way into the conversation; and I don't just mean the conversation between Hyperactive TV Draft Expert Y and Hyperactive TV Draft Expert Z. Rather, I'm talking about conversations in the football stats world.

For instance, ignoring the LCF for a moment, the QB prediction model du jour is the so-called Rule of 26-27-60, which was developed by Sports Illustrated's John Lopez. In this rule of thumb, the "26" means a college QB should have a Wonderlic score of at least 26, the "27" means he should have started at least 27 games, and the "60" means he should have completed at least 60% of his passes. For those familiar with the LCF, you'll immediately notice that the 26-27-60 rule is basically just LCF + Wonderlic, with the 37-start LCF threshold changed to 27- possibly for some convenient reason I'll get into later this week. The 26-27-60 rule has caught fire around NFL draft time the past couple of years, as indicated by the 20,000-plus Google results you get when searching "Rule of 26-27-60." It's even shown up on Cincy Jungle, SBN's Bengals blog.

Another QB prediction model that incorporates the Wonderlic is more geared towards the fantasy football side of things, and was developed by Fantasy Football Metrics', R.C. Fisher. This one is much more thorough than a simple rule of thumb, so I suggest you read Fisher's article if you're interested in the details. For our purposes, though, the point is that Wonderlic scores are mathematically incorporated into the rating spit out by the model.

So, given that some stat geeks seem to think the Wonderlic's useful in a QB projection context, the question I have is, "Is it, really?" The answer, it turns out, is incredibly simple, straightforward, and - apparently unbeknownst to the vast majority of fans and pundits - has almost reached conventional-wisdom status.

CUTTING TO THE CHASE

OK, let me first show you what a statistical relationship looks like in the context of QB performance. Below is a graph that plots college GS (horizontal axis) and NFL FFPts/G (vertical axis) for the 57 NFL QBs who were drafted in the first 2 rounds from 1992-2008:

 

Lcf_gs_scatter_medium

That white line sloping running through the middle of the graph shows the trend in FFPts/G as college GS increases, and "r = .398" is the correlation between the two. For the non-technical folks out there, the trend line and the correlation show a clear positive relationship, such that the higher number of games that a QB starts in college, the better he'll end up being during his NFL career. This relationship is statistically significant at the .001 level, which means we can be over 99.9% confident that it's not some happy accident. For the poker players out there, think about it this way: Hitting a 1-outer on the river is over 20 times more likely than finding a relationship this strong through dumb luck.

Now, let's compare that with the graph below, which plots the Wonderlic scores (horizontal axis) and NFL FFPts/G (vertical axis) for the same group of QBs (except the 6 for which I couldn't find Wonderlic scores):

 

Wonderlic_graph_medium

As you can see, there's just some random blob of dots up there that aren't trending in any direction. In contrast to the GS graph earlier, the trendline and correlation show no statistical relationship whatsoever in this one. To put it simply, having a better Wonderlic score does not predict a better NFL career for QBs.

THEN WHY DO WE STILL TALK ABOUT THE WONDERLIC AT DRAFT TIME?

What's interesting to me is that it's not like the utter uselessness of Wonderlic scores is some groundbreaking discovery I've just introduced to the world here. Rather, there's this 2005 study by McDonald Mirable and this 2009 study by Lyons et al., both of which found no relationship between Wonderlic scores and NFL QB performance. In fact, the Lyons et al. study found no relationship for the performance or salary of any position on the field. If this information has been out there since 2005, then why do we still talk about the Wonderlic at draft time, especially in the context of QBs? Not surprisingly, I have a couple of hypotheses.

First, I think the idea that above-average intelligence is an important attribute for a QB has kind of been baked into the cake ever since football scouting - and the popular interest in it - emerged from the Stone Age. In a business where finding the slightest edge is a valuable commodity, people are going to latch onto the latest and greatest commodity to appear on the horizon (See California Gold Rush of 1848). So, it's not surprising to me that the history of the Wonderlic in NFL player evaluation circles went something like, "Tom Landry looks for edge around 1970. Tom Landry finds Wonderlic a little after 1970. Tom Landry's Cowboys win a lot during the 1970s. Other NFL teams think Tom Landry's discovery of the Wonderlic is what made his teams win. Other NFL teams start copying Tom Landry because they, too, want to win. Intrepid journalist finds out that most NFL teams rely on a little known intelligence test called the Wonderlic. Intrepid journalist spreads the news. Cake put in oven. Widespread popular use of the internet, and all the easily disposable information that comes with it, does not emerge until about 15 years later. Cake baked."

This is purely speculation on my part, but evidence of the downward informational spiral can be seen in that 26-27-60 rule I mentioned at the beginning of the post. In essence, what you had here was a writer for (site decorum) SI coming along 5 years (!!!) after that Mirabile study (and after the LCF I might add), noticing that JaMarcus Russell bombed his Wonderlic and busted out of the NFL, and doing what columnists on deadline do best: developed something in a pinch that sounded good and was timely to current events, sophisticated fact-finding be damned. Again, this is speculation, but I'm guessing a story about the "we should have seen this coming" predictiveness of Russell's Wonderlic score wouldn't have gone over well with SI's editors if, you know, the Wonderlic actually didn't matter. Just saying.

This kind of "but...but, it just has to matter!" incredulity isn't just reserved for SI writers. It also appears in the fantasy-oriented prediction model I mentioned at the top. What Fisher did for that one, though, is a little bit savvier statistically speaking. Here's just a taste, from his list of model variables (my emphasis):

WONDERLIC/IQ - an unavoidable and a key data point we have access to on basic IQ and problem solving. There is a definite correlation to low Wonderlic scores and QB disappointment.

Did you catch that rose popping out of the magic wand? It's not that there's a definite correlation between Wonderlic scores and QB performance, it's that there's a definite correlation between low Wonderlic scores and QB disappointment. Again, a write-up of a system that incorporates Wonderlic scores wouldn't be as interesting if Wonderlic scores didn't matter. So, rather than acknowledging that they don't - which I just definitively demonstrated to you - he instead says Wonderlic scores only matter at the low end of the scale! Tada! Oh, and here's a rabbit!

At this point, almost everyone who's reading Fisher's post just accepts this to be true and moves on, unaware that they've just been duped by something masquerading under the guise of statistics; not to mention that football statisticians everywhere end up having to spend additional years of their lives defending their field thanks to magic tricks like these. Thankfully, you have me here at Niners Nation to prove to you that Wonderlic scores don't matter at the low end of the scale, at the middle of the scale, or at the high end of the scale.

If you take a look again at the Wonderlic graph above, you'll notice I've highlighted the data points for 7 specific QBs. The ones I chose were totally by design in that they represent QBs who had incredibly different career performances despite essentially being at the same point on the Wonderlic scale. For instance, low-Wonderlic-scorer Donovan McNabb has averaged over 13 FFPts/G thus far in his career, whereas low-Wonderlic-scorer Heath Shuler averaged less than 5 FFPts/G during his. On the other end of the spectrum, you have Wonderlic wunderkind Aaron Rodgers doing pretty well for himself, whereas another wunderkind, Kellen Clemens, has been so bad that he forced Brett Favre back into our lives after 4 months of peace.

Of course, then there's this. If you look at the absolute best FFPts/G stats and Wonderlic scores among the QBs, you'll notice that Peyton Manning has had the best career despite apparently being only moderately intelligent. In addition - and this is specifically for Niner fans - Alex Smith has had an average NFL career despite scoring 9 points higher than the average chemist.

My second hypothesis about why the Wonderlic lingers in draft conversation is loosely related to the first. Namely, take a look at the outlets at which the "Wonderlic doesn't mean diddly for QB performance" write-ups were published, and then compare that to the "Wonderlic means diddly" sources. Both the Mirabile study and the Lyons et al. study were published in peer-reviewed journals, the Lopez article was published in SI, and the Fisher model was posted on a fantasy football site. Now, I ask you, "How would you rank these sources in terms of the number of casual football fans that have read them?" OK, that's a rhetorical question. Obviously, SI and fantasy football sites attract just a tad more casual football-watching eyeballs than academic journals; not to mention that secondary sources like ESPN, CBS, etc. rely heavily on primary sources like SI, and now feature weekly (and sometimes daily) fantasy football coverage. So, is it unreasonable for anyone to suggest that the tens of millions of people who hear Wonderlic talk have driven the "Wonderlic matters" narrative? I think it's pretty darn reasonable, actually.*

And this brings me back to a comment I made earlier, which I'll expand on in closing. Here on NN, we've had our internecine battles about the value of stats in football. Although I'm obviously partial towards their value, I've been trained to recognize when they're of no value. Therefore, I'm also sympathetic to that side of the argument when the anti-stats view is offered as a sincerely held informed opinion. The problem that this whole Wonderlic thing highlights is that, in my mind, the anti-stats view is very often totally misinformed. Media Outlet X talks about Irrelevant Predictor Z as if it's relevant, normal people soak that up through osmosis because they have better things to do with their lives than evaluate statistical claims, notice the spectacular failures of Irrelevant Predictor Z, and then just throw their hands up dismissing stats altogether.

Here's the thing. In the same way not all scouting methods are good, not all statistical methods are good. The same way not all football pundits know what they're talking about, not all armchair football statisticians know what they're talking about. The curious reality I've found, though, is that when we notice Mel Kiper's failures, we just call him an idiot, and proceed to ignore anything Mel Kiper says after that. However, when we notice a statistical failure, we call the entire field of football statistics idiotic. For that reality, and the years of blogging I'll never get back thanks to it, I totally blame the Wonderlic. For the love of Peyton, here's hoping you will too.

*This national media trend may be shifting thanks, in part, to SBN. There's now my post, this post by Joel Thorman, and this one by Andy Hutchins, which actually sites the Lyons et al. study. Of course, even Thorman seems close to still falling victim to the "but...but, it just has to matter" trap.

Poll
If you were an NFL GM, would you incorporate Wonderlic scores into your QB evaluations?
YES
143 votes
NO
103 votes

246 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 51 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Wonderlic

I could see incorporating it as a tiebreaker or something like that.

by David Fucillo on Apr 18, 2011 4:14 PM PDT reply actions  

Yeah I think that’s fair.

by BustaTheRippa on Apr 18, 2011 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've been arguing this for awhile
In essence, what you had here was a writer for (site decorum) SI coming along 5 years (!!!) after that Mirabile study (and after the LCF I might add), noticing that JaMarcus Russell bombed his Wonderlic and busted out of the NFL, and doing what columnists on deadline do best: developed something in a pinch that sounded good and was timely to current events, sophisticated fact-finding be damned.

Simply took the LCF than found the easiest road to identifying Russell has a bust.

by bignerd on Apr 18, 2011 4:47 PM PDT reply actions  

as they say...

the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. point A = russell sucked. point B = russel bombed the wonderlic. voila! straight line.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 18, 2011 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Flawed Analysis of Wonderlic

This article does a great job of debunking the 27-26-60 rule, but is flawed in that it assumes that the high score is the value of the test.

I think the Wonderlic is a valuable tool if one looks at an anlysis of the types of questions a prospect got right or wrong. Great way to see if the QB’s intelligence and learning style fits with the HC’s and/or OC’s.

by reedkrase on Apr 18, 2011 5:00 PM PDT reply actions  

appreciate...

the compliment. i’ll just say that, were scores on individual questions readily available, i’d love to see how they relate to QB performance. unfortunately, that’s never going to happen. in a more general sense, though, saying a high score on the wonderlic isn’t the value of the test is like saying a high score on an IQ test or the SAT isn’t the value of those tests. the wonderlic, just like the 2 of those, are measures of functional intelligence (i.e., problem solving, critical thinking, information processing speed, etc.) as much as they are informational intelligence (e.g., 2 + 2 = 4). the questions themselves measure critical thinking, while the time limit forces test-takers to think quickly as well as correctly. in that sense, the score is exactly the value of the test.

as to your point about HC/OC compatibility, i’d love to hear how any of these wonderlic questions could inform this in any way.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 18, 2011 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Much of it is verbal.

Then there are some simple math, pattern distinguishing, and analogy problems.

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on Apr 19, 2011 3:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is in terms of fantasy points which means absolutely nothing in terms of winning games

McNabb is a fantasy stud but a loser when it comes to winning important games

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on Apr 18, 2011 5:09 PM PDT reply actions  

That and the graph starts off at 10

If you wanna say there is no bearing at all on performance how about we see how many NFL QBs have been successful that had scores below 10

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on Apr 18, 2011 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know of 1.

I think we can still find his pads somewhere in the stands in Tennessee

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on Apr 18, 2011 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

10...

is the score associated with basic literacy, and also, you know, just for the sake of including facts in this discussion, vince young scored a 16, and he’s in the graphs above.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 18, 2011 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

He scored a 16 when he retook it

He scored a 6 initially. The initial score says something about how dedicated they are and whether they actually ever studied in college. If they never studied in college it says something about their character. They couldn’t put in the time to learn at a 4th grade level what suggests they’ll change and put in the effort to learn a complex NFL playbook and dedicate their free time to honing their craft?

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on Apr 19, 2011 3:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Other semi-high profile QBs below 15

Garrard 14, McNabb, Seneca Wallace 14
Neil O’Donnell, Charlie Batch, 13
Kordell Stewart 12
Marcus Vick, Ell Roberson, Tee Martin 11
Jeff George, Michael Bishop 10
Chris Leak 8
Vince Young 6

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on Apr 19, 2011 4:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

not sure...

why you insist on saying vince young got a 6. he was rumored to have scored a 6 on his first try. that may or may not be true. even if we assume it is true, his last score was a 16. saying he got a 6 is like saying a lawyer who failed the bar exam the first time, and then passed it later, is not really a lawyer because of the failed first attempt. for the purposes of “lawyer evaluation,” he’s not disqualified from bar association membership because he failed the bar before passing it.

or, at the end of high school, a kid gets a 1000 on his first SAT attempt, then a 1400 on his second attempt. the 1400 is the one that goes on his application, and it’s the one colleges consider in the evaluation process. for the purposes of “student evaluation,” he’s considered a 1400-SAT applicant.

most of the others can easily be explained away by the fact that NFL teams identified them as not being any good talent-wise. chris leak was undrafted. marcus vick was undrafted. ell roberson (really???) was undrafted. michael bishop was a 7th-rounder. tee martin was a 5th-rounder.

and as far as jeff george, if you want to call 27,000+ yds, 150+ pass TDs, and an almost 2-1 TD/INT ratio “not successful,” i guess you’re entitled to your opinion.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 19, 2011 6:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

So what accounts for your anomaly McNabb?

The PPG or the fact that he scored very badly on his wonderlic?

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on Apr 19, 2011 3:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

not sure...

what you’re asking here. the point about mcnabb is that he’s a perfect example of why the wonderlic doesn’t matter, even at the low end of the wonderlic scale, which has been speculated by others to be an iron-clad bust identifier. whether the performance measure is FFPts/G or win% has nothing to do with it. of course, he has QBed 4 NFC championship game teams and 1 Super Bowl team to go along with his 62.9% win pct as an NFL starter.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 19, 2011 6:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

How many times was his team favored in those games?

How many did Super Bowl and NFC Championship games did he win?

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on Apr 19, 2011 6:54 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

FFPTs/G as a relevant statistic?

Why not just use touchdowns thrown? It’s the heaviest weighted stat in FFPTs/G.

If you think interceptions are 100% the fault of the QB, you can include those too, but a large part of those are random events.

Using fantasy points includes things like aggregate yards thrown (which is influenced more by number of attempts than QB skill), and rushing yards and touchdowns, which makes quarterbacks who can’t throw to save their lives look better than they really are.

by Ougadas on Apr 19, 2011 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

Womnderlic = Great QB?

I have to agree that as a basis of judging weather you score well on this or not means you are a great Football player is silly . . . however what is does show is a persons ability to learn, think quickly and analyse data . . .is that a good thing in a QB? to a point yes as shown by Peyton and some others and bad thing as shown by well Shuler ( notice I did not take the obvious AS poke?! ) ;-)

by KHookerman on Apr 18, 2011 5:11 PM PDT reply actions  

Alex does know 6 pro offensive systems by his 27th birthday

(If you consider Jimmy Raye’s system pro) I know its offensive.

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on Apr 18, 2011 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's not about high scores

Most scouts don’t care if a player is at the upper reaches of Wonderlic scores. But WHERE they are along the range. For instance, one scout guest on ESPN said they actually dont want high scores among their defensive backs’ scores. They wanted their prospects to be more instinctual than cerebral; they wanted the players to not over-analyze their mistakes and be ready for the next play. They have a MAXIMUM SCORE CUT-OFF POINT.
So I imagine, to some extent, the scouts aren’t looking for the HIGHEST score for QBs,but a MINIMUM SCORE CUT-OFF POINT. While those that score over 23 fail as often as succeed; we do know that only 3 have suceeded with a score lower than 23.

by J-House on Apr 18, 2011 5:37 PM PDT reply actions  

Wait you want to be smart but not too smart?

Kellen Moore is awesome
Katie Mcgrath is our savior
Im not competitive I just addicted to winning.

by manraj7 on Apr 18, 2011 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually...

in my over-worded way, I meant: YES some positions scouts wants a LOW score (cbs). But for QBs, they just want them to score above a certain number (like 23 for example). Only 3 good quarterback have scored less than 23.

by J-House on Apr 18, 2011 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Probably another terrible application of the Wonderlic test scores. An individual is capable of both scoring high on the Wonderlic and not over-analyzing the game of football.

Only 3 good QBs have scored less than 23. Well how many good QB’s scored over 37? I assume almost like everything else the Wonderlic test results follow a normal distribution curve. The majority of test takers would have scores that fall into the middle, therefore you wouldn’t have to many test results at the low and high ends.

Sounds like you are alluding to a threshold argument. What would the low end threshold be? 23 is too high, especially since some of the QBs you alluded to scoring below 23 are in the HOF, I think Marino and Bradshaw both scored in the low teens. Does a team want to objectively eliminate a potential HOF QB when obtaining a HOF level QB is the up-most importance to success? The answer is no, they can’t throw out any potential HOF QBs from the pool when the pool of successful QBs is already incredibly small. So lets shift the threshold down to 13 around Marino’s and Bradshaw’s score. Now I know based on the many comments by the heavily represented college educated 49ers fans on this board a low threshold below 20 won’t be accepted … despite the overwhelming academic evidence proving there is no correlation between QB performance and Wonderlic test at all.

by bignerd on Apr 18, 2011 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

normal
I assume almost like everything else the Wonderlic test results follow a normal distribution curve.

you can kind of tell that they are from the graph in the post. mean is about 27. 8 QBs were below 20, 7 were above 35, the other 36 were in the 20-35 range.

more technically, standard deviation was about 6.5, so 2 SDs either way in a normal distribution means you’d expect about 3 QBs at 14 or worse and 3 QBs at 40 or better. 3 were in fact at 14 or less, but only 1 (alex smith) was at 40 or better. given the sample size, this isn’t a significant deviation from normal.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 18, 2011 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

multiple endpoints
Sounds like you are alluding to a threshold argument.

don’t steal my thunder bignerd. save this discussion for tomorrow’s comment thread, please. :-)

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 18, 2011 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

wonderlic's wiki

has the average scores for each position. i’m assuming scouts want players that are above average for their position, and probably don’t care much about the wonderlic at non-cerebral positions like DL, RB (see frank gore’s infamous wonderlic score), etc.

but, the point here really isn’t whether or not most scouts rely on the wonderlic. i’ve readily conceded that. the point is whether or not relying on the wonderlic is sending them down the rabbit hole because it actually predicts nothing.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 18, 2011 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Intelligence...

It might not be the most valuable thing for athletes [QBs specifically], but it certainly facilitates the ability to assess and execute athletic situations [QB running an offensive scheme].

by danknerd49 on Apr 18, 2011 5:42 PM PDT reply actions  

There's no single factor or skill....

….that will determine a QB’s success in the NFL. All they have are bits and pieces and indications of a guy’s ability. Intelligence is one of them, along with determination, athletic ability, spatial skills, and probably100 other things. I think making a big deal of it one way or the other – either highlighting it or dismissing it – is a bit off-base.

This goes for the 26-27-60 rule as well, or Parcells’ 3 years/23 wins, or anything else where people will try to boil down future returns from past performance. The fact seems to be that the skills necessary for a QB to succeed in the NFL simply aren’t observable until they play in NFL games, the conditions necessary to evaluate can’t be reproduced anywhere else.

by Stoned Slacker on Apr 18, 2011 8:19 PM PDT reply actions  

I think the second most interesting part of this article

is that Alex is an exactly average quarterback, as measured by FPPG.

by ljl on Apr 18, 2011 8:54 PM PDT reply actions  

he's actually...

about .7 FFPts/G better than average!!! the reason he’s right on the trendline is because the totally random wonderlic-based model just happened to get lucky and nail his performance prediction. if the wonderlic actually mattered (ala college GS), it would have predicted a much better career (even better than rodgers, just about peyton-esque), and also have nailed it as precisely.

but, your point still holds. it’s pretty interesting to think of the alex smith conversation in the context of him actually being average. by said conversation, you’d think he was akili, not alex, smith.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 18, 2011 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd contend at this point he's slightly above average,

playing on an average team. With far below average coaching.

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on Apr 19, 2011 3:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

hypothetical question here (sorry for the multi-posting)

Any chance that wonderlic is correlated with success if you either include or only look at QBs from later rounds?

by ljl on Apr 18, 2011 8:56 PM PDT reply actions  

Good one

by mcwagner on Apr 18, 2011 9:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

i'm pretty sure...

that the peer-reviewed studies looked at all drafted QBs, not just the ones drafted in the first 2 rounds. i’ll double check, though. my hunch is that the wonderlic is still meaningless in later rounds.

by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Apr 18, 2011 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd be more interested in a spatial awareness and timing test

Than a wonderlic score.

As a quarterback your job is to track multiple three dimensional objects at a range of depths with multiple visual impairments, make judgments on spacing and range, and time a thrown projectile to arrive at an optimal point in the route. All this while avoiding 300 pound men trying to take your head off.

So you know that rose is to flower as marble is to stone. That doesn’t help.

by Ougadas on Apr 19, 2011 9:57 AM PDT reply actions  

Hilarious

After a great post that uses a sound statistical analysis to undermine the credibility of the wonderlic as a valid predictor of Qbs, the poll still has more people in favor of a GM including the wonderlic than opposing it. It doesn’t reflect well on the readership of NN, not that I am surprised.

by TheRaven on Apr 19, 2011 4:10 PM PDT reply actions  

Oh and I should say I wouldn’t be surprised to see the same result on most fan sites. Most fans (and probably most people period) seem to cling to ideas like the usefulness of something even after being presented with evidence to the contrary. Sad really.

by TheRaven on Apr 19, 2011 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

The evidence to the contrary doesn't account for everything.

I would never draft a QB that scored below a 10 on the wonderlic. Because absolutely 0, nada, zilch, NONE of them has ever panned out. If you never went to class and you can’t read, you’re really gonna learn an NFL playbook effectively and do film study.

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on Apr 19, 2011 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

poll

One issue with the poll is that it doesn’t say how to incorporate it. For example, I’d incorporate it as a tiebreaker if two guys were even in terms of everything else. I wouldn’t have it be some huge factor though.

by David Fucillo on Apr 19, 2011 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

using fantasy points is a a clear case of jerry-mandering.

Fantasy PPG heavily leans toward running and boom-or-bust QBs. Those who score high on the Wonderlic are marked as more cognitive, read the defense types. These are generalizations, but use another form of rating quarterbacks please.

by Rhombus on Apr 19, 2011 11:07 PM PDT reply actions  

EDIT:

jerry-mandering not really the word i was looking for. more like selective editing or something.

by Rhombus on Apr 19, 2011 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

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Officiating Crew

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