49ers Winning the Future With QB Alex Smith: A Statistical Profile?
Greetings from FO-land, everyone. Just thought I'd drop in to share a blog post I came across while scouring the internets for Extra Points fodder. This one pertains to Alex Smith, so I figured NN would be a better home for the discussion.
In case you're unaware, Ben Alamar is a Professor of Management at Menlo College, Editor of the Journal of Quantitative Analysis in Sports, coauthor of Football Outsiders Almanac (which, by the way, will be hitting the virtual shelves sometime shortly after the lockout ends), and author of the Analytic Football blog. On Analytic Football, he did a post last Friday identifying 5th-year QBs who put up numbers at age 26 similar to Smith's 2010 stats. Money quote:
On Yds/Att, QB rating, TD% (indexed by PFR), Int% (indexed by PFR), and Completion Percentage, Smith fits right in. He is better than Big Ben in TD%, QB rating, and Compl%, better than Brees in Int%, and just behind [Roethlisberger, Brees, and Peyton Manning] on Yds/Att. The other three of course all of [sic] Super Bowl rings and multiple All-Star game appearances on their resumes. So what is going on? How can the much maligned Alex Smith, playing for multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators, have delivered a similar performance as these shining examples of QB play?
I'll leave it to you to read the rest of Alamar's post, in which he does a more sophisticated stat analysis to find out "what gives."
After the jump, my take...
I think the fundamental thing to understand about how two different conclusions can arise out of the same stats is that there's a big difference, conceptually speaking, between working your way backward from an outcome and working your way forward from a precondition. In the first analysis (i.e., the one that shows Smith is a Super Bowl MVP waiting to happen), Alamar started with the idea, "given Smith's stats, let's see who was similar at the same age and experience." In the second analysis (you'll have to read his post to find out what that one shows), he started with the idea, "given Smith's age and experience, let's see who had similar stats."
Obviously, age and experience going into a season occurs chronologically before the statistical results of that season, so the second analysis is the correct one to believe. In other words, Smith didn't throw for his stats in 2010 first, and then enter his 5th season.
I highlight this concept because much of what I see in terms of popular football "analysis" (not at FO, of course) focuses on backward timelines. A term I use for this is "profiling," and I think it's one of the biggest reasons why fans think stats wear burning pants. In criminology, profilers encounter serial killers, and try to find out what those serial killers had in common before they started killing. They say, "the vast majority of serial killers abused animals as children." You hear this, and -- presuming you're not actually a serial killer -- think, "When I was a kid, I had a blast burning ants on the sidewalk with my magnifying glass! How come I'm not a serial killer, Mr. Profiler Guy!" It's because you're (correctly) thinking about your childhood, and then looking at how you turned out later.
In football, profiling is when someone notices a group of players/teams with a similar achievement, and then see what earlier characteristics they had in common. Basically, the profiling sentence construction goes, "Of the X (players/teams) who achieved Y, A of them did B earlier." My personal favorite example is the 3rd-year WR profile. If you click on that link from the Dark Ages of the internet, you'll read the profiling with your own eyes:
73.5% of the WRs in the sample (26 out of 36) had a 150-point breakout year when they had at least 55 receptions and 890 yards the previous year.
See how they did that there? 73.5%! Shockingly accurate! You too can be a maven at predicting breakout seasons by a 3rd-year WR! Sadly, no you can't. And that's because the correct thing to ask is, "Of the WRs who had at least 55 receptions and 890 yards one year, how many broke out with their first 150-point fantasy season the next year?"
So, in closing, Alamar did things the right way. Profiling led him to find that Alex Smith has some select Super-Bowl-MVP company. He knew that couldn't be correct, so he flipped the analysis around. Lo and behold, it wasn't. When you see, hear, or read commentary that takes the form of profiling, ignore it. When it's done the way Alamar's second analysis was done, believe it. As a football fan, knowing how to discern between good stats and bad stats is an important skill. Ignoring profilers is Lesson #1.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled Alex Smith argument!
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I wouldn't ignore "profilers"
I would just take the analyses for what they are. Those numbers in context still provide some explanation, and some explanation combined with well reasoned predictions are still valuable.
By the way, you must be having a blast at this new gig.
Harbaugh will find a QB and he will succeed.
true...
“in context” is the key there. perhaps “ignore” is a strong word. but, hey, far be it from me to be hyperbolic.
and, yes to the 2nd part.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 14, 2011 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions
So what have we learned?
We learned Alex Smith had an average year last year and statistics show he may or may not pan out. Wow.
by Indiana Jim on Jul 14, 2011 8:27 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
yeah
this told ME nothing new, but hopefully some of the “OMG bust!!!” and “sky is falling!” people can learn something from it
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
i must have been...
the only one to not know that smith’s 2010 season as a 26-year old 5th year QB was matched only by brees, big ben, and peyton. with that said, though, i agree with you about the bust vs. baller crowd.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 14, 2011 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
well
when you restrict yourself to 5th year, age 26, putting up average or better stats, you’re going to come up with some pretty good names. QBs who are starting, in their 5th year in the league, and 26 are pretty rare in and of themselves. It’s kind of like looking at stats of 23 year olds in MLB who are in their 3rd year in the majors. You’ve already got a pretty exclusive group before you start a stat breakdown.
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
right...
i know. the analysis that results in smith being comparable to those 3 QBs was flawed. that was the point of my post, albeit from a different angle. i just meant that, even granting the flaw, it’s still surprising for smith to ever be in that kind of company, regardless of selection bias. or, put differently, taking the selection bias argument into account, it’s still informative to see that he’s in that rare 5th-yr @ 26 yo group, if for no other reason to wonder, “hey, where the hell are OUR super bowl rings???”
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 14, 2011 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
years of in the league and age seem like pretty subjective profiling points
why not choose brown hair?
would rather the analysis focused on comparing stats based on the number of games smith was healthy enough to play, (about 55), which for ben, manning and brees means comparing stats from the end of their third year through the beginning of their fourth year.
years in league vs age
is pretty much the opposite of a subjective profiling point. In baseball, the age of a prospect is one of the most important things, more important than most of their stats. There’s a reason for this. When you’re trying to describe the past, age/experience doesn’t matter very much, if at all. When you’re trying to predict the future, it becomes much, much more important.
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
How about if we
don’t look at the stats at all,because we all know stats lie. Just look at Alex play football on the NFL field. Evaluate him using the eyeball test. He is mediocre at best,so far. Those are the facts.
If you’re basing your evaluation just on what you see then it is subjective and therefore opinion, not fact.
by Andrew9erfan on Jul 14, 2011 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
you're obviously...
correct. i mean, he clearly doesn’t have enough swag. no “it” factor. clearly.
by (Florida) Danny Tuccitto on Jul 14, 2011 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
And that means what exactly , a term pigeon holed for something thats misconstued for lack any merit what so ever ...!!
I'm your " Huckelberry "...it's just my game ...Jimmy Raye your no daisy ...!!
The problem is
about 99.9% of the population is drastically under-qualified to perform an “eyeball test” on an NFL level QB.
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
by Viliphied on Jul 14, 2011 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Too funny , this coming from a guy whose eye ball test gave Nate the esoteric fraternities of the next HOFer ...!!
I'm your " Huckelberry "...it's just my game ...Jimmy Raye your no daisy ...!!
was nate davis given a proper chance or steam rolled by sing? if nate davis was given as many chances and as much opportunity and effort from the organization I still say that he could be a good qb. he was never given a chance
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jul 14, 2011 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
and that's clear from all the teams chomping at the bit to sign him after he was cut, right?
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
was nate davis given a proper chance or steam rolled by sing?
nope, he was not.
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jul 14, 2011 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
was not what?
given a proper chance or steam rolled by sing?
Grammatical issues with your post aside, how do you know he was steam rolled by sing? There are lots of late round QBs teams take flyers on who don’t pan out. Were all of them steam rolled by their coaches too?
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
do you read what you reply to?
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jul 14, 2011 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
yes. I know what you meant because of your post above
good job ignoring my whole 2nd paragraph though.
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
so do you now understand the grammar?
so you can no regular season appearances chances?
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/9435
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jul 14, 2011 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions
re: grammar
your “nope, he was not” is ambiguous. Given the way the post was structured it could refer either to “was nate davis given a proper chance[?]” or “[was nate davis] steamrolled by sing?”
Re: Regular season appearances: You completely ignored my point above. Every year, QBs drafted in the 4-7th rounds (and who join a team undrafted) are cut without seeing any regular season action. Have all of those QBs been steamrolled by their coaches?
This isn’t pee wee football, you have to earn your way onto the field. That Nate could never even pass David Carr on the depth chart speaks volumes.
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
ALL OF THESE GUYS ARE GETTING STEAMROLLED BY THEIR COACHES!!!!!!
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/9755
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/24226
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/8622
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/24489
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/24311
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/24157
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/24097
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/24727
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/24144
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/9569
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/24214
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/9626
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/24321
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/9438
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/24144
AND THATS JUST THE GUYS ON A ROSTER!!! WHAT OF THE FAs!?!?!?!?!
WON"T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE QBs?!?!?!??!?!?!!!
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
sUper bOx
why did you post a whole bunch of players that are still on their teams?
ARE THE SITUATIONS THE SAME, NO
I am not going to respond to anymore so that I do not get a warning.
take care.
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jul 14, 2011 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions
did you even check
to see how many of those guys are still on the teams that drafted them / signed them originally? I’m gonna guess no.
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
and scroll up to read what I original wrote(hello) mr. grammar.
and
nate davis was cut to make room for troy smith because nate davis could not learn the play book even though the oc said he was learning it fine. nate davis had a good game in preseason then sing chops it down.
again, nate davis was not given a chance.
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jul 14, 2011 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions
yes he had a good game in preseason
The previous year. Then he regressed in the next preseason and looked pretty bad. All the reports I saw were that they were disapointed because they wanted nate to push carr in preseason and it didn’t look like he had progressed enough to do so.
by Andrew9erfan on Jul 15, 2011 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
"cant learn the playbook"
good enough reason not to ever see the field…especially for a QB
Give tha guy a break...I remember losing most of our games because of mistakes by players that did not play the quarterback position.
I'm sure Norv Turner is a good judge of a good QB...even he said the guy can be good w/ quality people around him.
by NewAgecorner1 on Jul 16, 2011 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Presumably, Harbaugh and Baalke are better judges of football talent than any of us, especially since they have greater access to far more data than we do. That being the case, I would think they’d plan to keep Nate a 49er if they thought they could groom him to be a worthwhile QB. Especially considering that Harbaugh is supposed to be a QB Whisperer and David Carr is still on the depth chart.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
was nate davis given a proper chance or steam rolled by sing?
nope he was not.
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jul 14, 2011 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
how many games did he play in? not preseason? exactly.
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jul 14, 2011 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Coaches generally don’t give players a chance to play if they haven’t shown they’re up to it in practice and preseason. Should every UDFA and 7th rounder be given some playing time?
by Andrew9erfan on Jul 15, 2011 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
That makes no sense. And I’ll still defer to Harbaugh and Baalke, especially since Baalke probably has a better idea than either of us just what Nate’s ceiling might be.
Personally, I don’t much care. Smith, Carr, Davis, Shaun Hill, Trent Dilfer, Cody Pickett, Cody Ross, Cody Banks… I don’t think any of them were going to be the difference between 6-10 or 10-6 last year.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
cody ross ? wrong sport.
not sure who cody banks is. you said it makes no sense then prove nate davis was given a proper chance.
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jul 14, 2011 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions
He was given a chance by Mr. 2nd Chance in Seattle
He lasted all of a week before they cut bait on him.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jul 14, 2011 7:50 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
how is it given a chance if he does not even play in a regular season game?
my original point was judging nate davis without him having 7 years of chances like alex smith has gotten. heck even just 3 or 4 regular season games. nate was not really given a chance.
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jul 14, 2011 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions
he was given a chance when they gave him equipment and a jersey
if you dont think so then u also infer that every player that has not started a game was not given a chance. You earn your field time on the practice field. Im sure Nate was lacking in some area other then talent ( punctuality, playbook mastery, coachability…pick one). He was definitely more talented then Carr. Every body on that team has a chance, slim as it might be but they have a chance. If you can’t beat out the person ahead of you then u wont play. Its not like we got Brady ahead of him.
Give tha guy a break...I remember losing most of our games because of mistakes by players that did not play the quarterback position.
I'm sure Norv Turner is a good judge of a good QB...even he said the guy can be good w/ quality people around him.
by NewAgecorner1 on Jul 14, 2011 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I suppose michael robinson never got a chance either because they never played him at qb.
by Andrew9erfan on Jul 15, 2011 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Frankie Muniz is Cody Banks
Ross and Banks were part of a joke. Nice sense of humor, guy.
What didn’t make sense is this:
was nate davis given a proper chance or steam rolled by sing?
nope he was not.
As noted above by Viliphied, that made no sense.
As for my proof regarding Nate Davis, I’ll refer you to Scot McCloughan:
McCloughan drafted Davis with the thought that Davis would need a few years of seasoning.
A few years of seasoning and he was “steamrolled” in year 2? Don’t get me wrong, it’s quite possible he’d have been pretty good eventually, but if even the guy who drafted him thinks he needs a few years… Then – as I said and you in typical HH fashion ignored – Nate Davis quite likely wasn’t going to be the difference between 6-10 and 10-6.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
a QB's play cannot be acurately judged just by looking at a game the way a fan does.
thats why teams watch film over and over again. Just because you see AS throw the ball away or take a sack does not automatically mean he screwed up. There are too many variables that are impossible to spot w/o knowing the play, each player’s assignment, and watching that play 4 or 5 times…a luxury us fans do not get.
Give tha guy a break...I remember losing most of our games because of mistakes by players that did not play the quarterback position.
I'm sure Norv Turner is a good judge of a good QB...even he said the guy can be good w/ quality people around him.
by NewAgecorner1 on Jul 14, 2011 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Alex Smith may just be Trent Dilfer.
Man, wouldn’t that be AWESOME???
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
does he come with a ring?
if so, yes!
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
more seriously
there are a lot of worse qbs to have while you’re waiting for your project qb to get used to NFL playbooks/speed
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
It wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world, but Dilfer won a Super Bowl by riding the coattails of a brilliant defense. Not so sure Alex can do the same thing with the 49ers. Though personally, I’d just be happy with the 49ers having a winning record with an at least competent offense.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
I have way less confidence in our D to replicate the Ravens than Smith to replicate Dilfer.
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
in other words
I think Alex could lead us to a SB if our D was THAT good, but our D (or any D for that matter) is highly unlikely to be that good.
Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.
Yo danny would it be ok if I use your equations
I sent you a tweet
"Hi my name is Cliff Harris and I am here to lock [site decorum] down" - Cliff Harris introduction at his Freshman Orientation
Reporter : "What do you remember about the BCS title game"
Cliff Harris: "That we lost"

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