49ers Vs. Giants, NFC : Secondary Or Pass Rush, Chicken Or Egg?
by David Fucillo on Jan 18, 2012 7:30 AM PST
in 2012 NFL Playoffs
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PrintA week after dealing with Drew Brees and his band of merry receivers, the 49ers defense gets a matchup against Eli Manning and a pretty slick group of receivers. While the New Orleans Saints offense was pretty impressive at the Superdome, Eli and his crew of receivers can do damage just about anywhere. Victor Cruz, Hakeem Nicks and Mario Manningham scare me plenty more than most all the other receiver groups that were in the playoffs this year.
As the 49ers get ready to face the Giants on Sunday, there are two significant issues for the 49ers defense. One would be dealing with those three receivers and whatever else the Giants want to throw at the 49ers. The other would be actually getting pressure on Eli. The Packers struggled mightily with that. They got one sack and seven hits on Eli, but there were too many times where he seemed to have all day in the pocket to make plays.
Ideally the 49ers would get pressure on Eli and also take away his receivers with some great coverage. You could make arguments that good pressure forces quick throws or great coverage gives the pass rush time to develop. For the 49ers, I would think getting pressure is more important. They have solid corners, but I think guys like Justin Smith, Aldon Smith and Ahmad Brooks are more apt to get pressure a little bit quicker, rather than hoping the secondary can maintain their assignments while Eli is taking his time figuring out where to throw.
Does one matter more than the other when you can't get both, or is it much like a chicken versus egg type of deal?
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from a giants fan's perspective
i would say it is more effective to play great coverage against Eli Manning. Pressure doesn’t really rattle the guy. He handles the blitz as well as any quarterback and I would say is pocket presence is top notch. Getting sacks would obviously be a great thing for your defense and can just disrupt everything. However, he takes risks when guys are covered. I see him throw the ball away before a sack if he has the chance almost automatically If you guys can play lock down D in the secondary I would look for Eli to try and force some throws, which can lead to the big turnover. I think your coaching staff will see that and I expect you guys to do a lot of 4 man rushing with extra guys in coverage, daring us to run the ball.
it should be a good one.
by The Blood of Eli on Jan 18, 2012 7:45 AM PST reply actions
Eli doesn’t seem to force the ball as much as Brees does
by Mapletreemarty on Jan 18, 2012 7:53 AM PST up reply actions
well he definitely cut down the forced throws when comparing to last season
and last season Eli and Brees led the league in INTs, so there ya go. Eli still does it when no one is open though. He also likes to try and force these impossible to catch high throws over the middle to Jake Ballard. Ballard was targeted like 8 times or something on Sunday and only had 1 catch. I hold my breathe when Eli goes to Ballard now.
by The Blood of Eli on Jan 18, 2012 8:01 AM PST up reply actions
He's definitely a gunslinger!
Gonna be a shootout in the West!
A. Smith + tiger blood + Harbaugh = #winning
We pretty much always rush 4...
I don’t expect anything different for this game. Eli has been known to make the occassional bonehead play when everything breaks down, so the coaches will hope to disrupt the pocket and get a couple bad throws that can lead to turnovers. That’s actually what we have done to everyone all year. The only real question is how they attack on the pass rush to get the most favorable advantage.
by 9thevolution on Jan 18, 2012 8:15 AM PST up reply actions
blitzing is reckless against Eli
49ers paid for it like all 3 times they did it the last time they played. I still don’t know why they blitzed Goldson on the last TD the Giants got.
Draft: 1. Kendall Wright 2. Trumaine Johnson
FA: Smith, Morgan, Brooks, Rogers, Snyder
by whistlingmountain on Jan 18, 2012 9:35 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That one was the worst thought out blitz I've seen this year
First we started Goldson too deep in the backfield — no way he could get to Eli. Second, we had Reggie Smith covering the deep half of the field behind him.
Brown forces the receiver to take an inside release because he’s expecting help over the top on any deep pass route. Reggie makes a late read, takes a bad angle, and never has a chance to give that help.
Eli throws that one up every single time.
Every time Jamie Dukes says something enlightening and informative about football Jerry Rice and I mount up on our flying grizzly bears and claim pirate treasure from the moon. That's how often it happens.
Pressure combined
with some knocking the receivers at the line of scrimmage to take away the first option & make the QB think.
4 man pass rush...
It seemed the Niners 4 man pass rush was more and more effective as the game went on last week. I know the Saints had three pro bowl linemen, but how does the Giants O-line stack up?? Are they as good??
If Justin Smith draws double teams as he had all year, it should really open things up for Aldon on the outside.
Giants o-line has played better in the playoffs
but our o-line has been the weakness of our offense all season long. David Diehl has struggled TREMENDOUSLY at left tackle since our starter and best offensive lineman, LT Will Beatty went to IR. Diehl was at LG before the injury and probably sucked worse there than he does at LT. A shame, being that he has had such a great career with us and he was part of that feared o-line that won us a super bowl. A familiar face for you guys, David Baas, has struggled to stay healthy at center. I think he will be good for us, but it didnt pan out this year. We have been shuffling lineman to fill his hole all season. He is healthy for this one and maybe he gets some extra motivation facing his old team on the road for the NFC champ. Our former All-Pro RG Chris Snee is no longer an All-Pro. Not much really to say about him. RT Kareem McKenzie was the best lineman on the team in 2010. In 2011, not so much. He has been abused all year and his age is finally catching up to him.
Maybe that give you a little insight into our o-line
by The Blood of Eli on Jan 18, 2012 8:06 AM PST up reply actions
oh I forgot Kevin Boothe
Boothe started the 2011 season ont he bench. When Will Beatty went to IR and Diehl moved over to LT, Boothe filled in at LG. He has also played center, filling in for David Baas. I must say, he has been our best offensive lineman in 2011. I dont know how I forgot to mention him lol. He has filled in beautifully for guys that have gone down all over the line. He has not been spectacular, but he has been solid. You really cant ask more out of a backup thrown into the mix halfway through the year.
by The Blood of Eli on Jan 18, 2012 8:09 AM PST up reply actions
Baas was overpaid.
He was a perennial utility backup until he emerged as a good but not great center last year.
A. Smith + tiger blood + Harbaugh = #winning
I agree
our GM Jerry Reese has not paid much attention to our O Line over the yeas. When we cut our C in the off-season there was no one to take his place. He went out and gave Baas an offer he couldn’t refuse, because he knew that if he did refuse, the Giants would have been completely F’ed at center and then Reese would have looked like a complete moron.
by NYStateofMind on Jan 18, 2012 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
That wasn't the "Packers"
Yeah, they were wearing the jerseys, but the team we saw the Giants beat wasn’t the Packers that had been playing for the last year and a half. I think you can more or less throw out what you saw there.
The Giants can’t run and the 49ers are the best at stopping the run. If it’s raining, I think that means the Giants are going to have big trouble moving the ball. If not, I think the Niners can force Eli to hit less preferred targets and try to force their lesser lights to make a play.
But if there’s one thing I know about Eli Manning is that he seems to make a mockery of statistics and plans—just look at that Hail Mary in the last game against the Zombie Packers.
Putting all the rah-rah crap aside, this is a pretty even matchup and I think the handicappers in Vegas got it right by making the Niners a favorite by about a field goal more or less because it’s a home game for them.
Vegas didn't make them a Three point favorite , their basicly calling the game even , all home teams get Three points by virtue their playing at home ...!!
I'm your " Huckelberry "...it's just my game ..( .AleX ) was asked , what do you think about all the game manager talk ... AleX i guess i just managed myself a VIctory ... Extend the Man ...!!
Counterpoint
Yes, the Packers were off their game, but that also could be due to the fact the Giants defense got them out of rhythm, Not trying to being a homer, but I think the dropped balls were due to Rodgers feeling the pass rush and not being on same page with WRs.
Husker/Giants/Mets fan living behind enemy lines.
Eh, somewhat
Watching the film (we learned that from Singletary), there were a number of passes that were very catchable and were dropped. During the season, GB’s WR’s consistently made those catches and the tougher catches to help Rodgers look even better…
by ColoradoNiner on Jan 18, 2012 9:56 AM PST up reply actions
Also
Rodgers had 2 done deal TD’s go awry ~ one because he overthrew the receiver and the other was that waaay open receiver that had beat his defender but…well…he never got the ball.
"One game at a time. Let's just keep it rolling." Justin Smith
The "Waaay open receiver that had beat his defender but... well...he never got the ball."
that wasn’t because Rodgers was off his game or his receivers were off his game. The Giants’ defense stripped the ball out of his hands forcing a fumble and a turnover. So that example only bolsters CCE718’s argument that part of GB’s issues were caused by the Giants defense.
by NYStateofMind on Jan 18, 2012 5:00 PM PST up reply actions
The other "sure TD"
Rodgers was scrambling out of the pocket trying to avoid a sack, and had Jacquian Williams behind him in hot pursuit. Maybe that forced a less than perfect pass. Also, even if the catch was made, it was around the 3 yard line and it wasn’t a for sure TD. He may have been tackled.
by NYStateofMind on Jan 18, 2012 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
Chicken>egg
As for the pass rush/coverage thing, pressure is always more important.
Eli Manning had all day to throw against the Packers, as you mentioned.
What we've got here is a failure to communicate.
Follow the Chicken on Twitter
The egg came long before the chicken
science.
but I agree, pressure more important in regards to defending the pass.
Draft: 1. Kendall Wright 2. Trumaine Johnson
FA: Smith, Morgan, Brooks, Rogers, Snyder
by whistlingmountain on Jan 18, 2012 9:29 AM PST up reply actions
Pressure is important
but only if you don’t have to blitz a lot to get the pressure. If you need to rely on the blitz, Eli will more often burn you than not.
by NYStateofMind on Jan 18, 2012 5:09 PM PST up reply actions
Pro Football Focus's grades are not kind to NYG's line...
Let’s take a quick look at the Pro Football Focus numbers from the New York Giants’ 37-20 victory over the Green Bay Packers Sunday in an NFC Divisional Round playoff game.
OFFENSE
Eli Manning (6.3)
Hakeem Nicks (3.2)
Victor Cruz (2.3)
Ahmad Bradshaw (1.9)
Mario Manningham (+1.8)
Chris Snee (-1.5)
Kareem McKenzie (-2.1)
Bear Pascoe (-2.5)
David Diehl (-3.1)
Kevin Boothe (-6.0)
Valentine’s View: It’s a miracle that the Giants do what they do on offense with an offensive line this porous. David Baas was -1.0, giving all of the linemen negative grades. Manning makes this line look at least decent with the way he slides around, and the way he constantly gets the Giants into running plays that have a chance.
**I tend to agree with this assesment. In response to Fooch, I believe our pass rush has a better chance than the secondary of dictating the outcome of the game.
yup ^^
the line just has not been good and i think what Eli has been doing is something the average NFL fan does not see. His pocket presence has been UNREAL this season. It reminds me of what Tom Brady has done so well for his entire career. Those little sidesteps to make a blitzer miss or the slight shoulder dips that QBs do when they step up in the pocket to get out of the way of edge pass rushers; these are things that Eli has perfected in 2011. I can’t say he was very good at it previously, but this season he has done it all year long. He has bailed out the o-line time and time again with those moves and also in the running game. One thing you will notice is how much barking Eli does pre-snap. I would credit at least half of the successful runs this year to Eli seeing something and changing the play, not the o-line at all. Also, the wide receivers have done an OUTSTANDING job making blocks in the second level. Ed Valentine hinted at that stuff slightly with that assessment you got from BBV. ^^
Basically, our offensive line sucks and Eli/Hakeem/Victor have carried our offense to the NFC Championship game.
by The Blood of Eli on Jan 18, 2012 8:23 AM PST up reply actions
Yup
Eli has done what he’s done this year without a very good line. Can’t run block at all. No running game. And despite the low sack and hit numbers that the line gets credited with, it doesn’t tell the true story. Eli has just been very good at moving around, avoiding pressure and getting rid of the ball… and there has been plenty of pressure this year.
by NYStateofMind on Jan 18, 2012 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
It's definately a bit of both
There were times against the Saints where Brees had ample time to throw but ended up throwing a checkdown because the coverage was so good. There were other times where the pass rush forced Brees into making throws he wouldn’t normally make i.e.Goldson interception
Rule #1) If you hate Joe Buck, watch this www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkCSZKbyL94
Rule #2) Follow rule #1
Pass rush sets up the secondary...
…like passing sets up the run. Obviously, there are exceptions to this (e.g., coverage sacks) but a strong pass rush will hide a multitude of sins in the secondary, as ours has done this year.
That said, I’m reassured by Florida Danny’s analysis before the Saints game. Apparently, defending the deep ball is something our secondary does well.
definitely agree
The only proven “successful” defense against these modern offenses is consistent pressure from a 4 man rush. I don’t even mean sacks, sacks are completely overrated. Pressure is everything.
The corners can’t suck, but the pressure is more important.
Draft: 1. Kendall Wright 2. Trumaine Johnson
FA: Smith, Morgan, Brooks, Rogers, Snyder
by whistlingmountain on Jan 18, 2012 9:26 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
IS IT JUST ME OR.....
Does it seem like niners fans dont have near as much confidence as they did vs saints . Its all been giants this , there gonna do this, watch out for this , “@#$$ giants” sorry but they aint no better than the saints who we were supposed to lose to ya know, but we need confidence from are fans and players we gonna be superbowl champs Peeps woop eli’s" arse" one more time..cuz aint no one got it better in this mother………
by ninerpride on Jan 18, 2012 9:31 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Giants have a better defensive line
And the Niner O-line has been inconsistent in pass protection during the year.
Hence, some intrepidation.
I still say SF wins, but it will likely be close and tough, and SF must bring their A-game across the board.
by ColoradoNiner on Jan 18, 2012 10:01 AM PST up reply actions
Giants have a better D all around
than the Saints. And I think you are right. SF O line isn’t that great. Alex Smith was one of the most sacked QBs in the league this year and your YPC average in the run game was an average 4.1 I believe.
As for the Giants offense, I think they averaged more points per game outdoors than the Saints offense did this year. So there is that…
by NYStateofMind on Jan 18, 2012 5:16 PM PST up reply actions
Its that with the saints the strenghts and weaknesses of each team matched up, but with the Giants there are few glaring mismatches.
Kickham where it hurts
by say hey nation on Jan 18, 2012 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
Does hunger count for anything?
Because if it does, I think our team has suffered far too long to lose @ home when we’re this close; don’t get me wrong, Eli shredding the Packers @ Lambeau is impressive in itself; but that’s what happens to a team that gets lackadaisical…
by Doni S on Jan 18, 2012 12:34 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Er
why not do what we did earlier in the season to beat them? Play a relatively low-medium avg. scoring game & pin them deep w/Andy’s punts…
by Doni S on Jan 18, 2012 12:22 PM PST via mobile reply actions
btw, GB lost because
they took the Giants for granted; Coach Harb’s won’t let that happen w/our guys…period
by Doni S on Jan 18, 2012 12:27 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I don't think anybody took the Giants for granted
given that they had just essentially shut out Atlanta the week before and held their last 3 opponents to just 30 points total (not to mention the beastly seasons Nicks and Cruz have had).
Also if you are just hoping for the same thing as the last game, you are going to hope that the Giants commit the same amount of TO (which is possible, but not exactly something to center your game plan on).
Also, the Giants LB unit is better this time around (with Boley healthy and Blackburn resigned), our entire D line is healthy (they are 5-1 when Osi, JPP and Tuck play in the same game together), and our DC has seemingly simplified the coverage schemes in the past month. The confusion in the secondary and the blown assignments/coverages that were our trademark for most of the season have largely vanished.
by NYStateofMind on Jan 18, 2012 5:30 PM PST up reply actions
Also
If you are GB, how do you take a team for granted that you barely beat by 3 points in your regular season matchup, and that was playing MUCH better football than the last time you played them?
by NYStateofMind on Jan 18, 2012 5:39 PM PST up reply actions
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