49ers 2012 Free Agents: Will Trent Baalke Use The Franchise Tag?
by David Fucillo on Jan 4, 2012 6:00 AM PST
in 49ers Salary Cap
Email
PrintWhile there is hopefully a whole lot of playoff football still to be enjoyed, there is enough on the business of things worth discussing as we plow through the bye week. I'm actually convinced the playoff bye week will feel much longer than the mid-season bye week. It may in fact never end. There's your optimism for you!
Even as the 49ers get ready for their divisional round playoff game, I've got to think the football operations staff is powering through the upcoming free agents and the new CBA to figure out how best to maximize their free agency buck. Due to some of the intricacies of this past offseason, the 49ers signed a fair number of players to one-year deals. While some of the deals didn't work out (Edwards, Braylon), some arguably could not have ended up any better (Carlos Rogers and Dashon Goldson).
The 49ers have some notable free agents on the offensive side of the ball, but two of the most important free agents are Rogers and Goldson. That is not to say one or the other is a must-sign for future success, but rather, the 49ers decisions surrounding these two could have a notable impact on the 49ers other plans in free agency.
One of the most viable options is signing one of the two and using the franchise tag on the other. Those two would seem to be the most logical players to franchise. The folks at Football Outsiders put together some projections for what the franchise tag would be at for the 2012 season. They broke down both defensive tag projections and offensive tag projections. These are just estimates while awaiting the final planned cap numbers for the upcoming season.
The cornerback position is projected between $10.431M and $10.832M while the safety position is projected between $6.22M and $6.459M. Franchise tag aside, it would seem likely that neither will be re-signed before the end of this season. Additionally, both likely would be just as open to waiting for the start of free agency to further establish their value.
If you look just at age, Goldson makes more sense to get locked up long term. On the other hand, Rogers has a history of solid production, although his interception numbers have skyrocketed this year. He is 30, while Goldson is 27, but I can't imagine anything more than a three or four year deal for Rogers. Given Goldson's up and down nature the past few years, using the franchise tag on him might make the most sense for the 49ers current needs.
How would you handle these two?
146 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Franchise Goldson & Re-sign Rogers
I think Goldson’s the one more likely to walk for money and if he’s not franchised he’s going to be shooting for Eric Berry-type money (he won’t get it but that’s what he’ll want). Rogers is great and has openly expressed his desire to return on several occasions. We might be able to get the “hometown” discount for him and lock him up on a 3-4 year deal that’s good for him and the team.
As far as other defensive starters go, what’s going to happen with Brooks? He’s been quiet but I hope we can get him back too.
I like Brooks but when u look at the available lb's
In free agency, the age and price tag attached to a lot of the names out there may make Brooks attractive to other teams in need of a starter. I just don’t see getting into a bidding war over him considering that Willis and Bowman are outstanding, Haralson is capable and, hopefully, 99 Problems will see increased snaps in the future.
by redgolddynasty on Jan 4, 2012 6:42 AM PST via iPhone app up reply actions
I agree 100%
I want to see Dashon pick it up for another year, and become consistent year in, and year out. Then the $$$. Rogers will be good for another 3+ years, so we should sign him as he is a game changer.
The TechGuy
Zeolite
Franchise Goldson; Re-sign Rogers
Hopefully, at that point, you can get Goldson to sign a longer term deal. Either way, a FS absolutely has to be taken in the draft this year in order to have him ready to start in the future. We should actually be taking two safeties for depth this year, since the secondary is incredibly weak beyond the starters.
We're weak beyond starters in lots of areas
Center, guard, inside linebacker (if we don’t resign Grant), fullback, tight end, corner and safety. You could also argue we have no real depth at WR too. What Baalke and the FO does prior to the draft will have a dramatic effect on our draft. I’m not trusting any mock drafts until a week or so before the draft.
Not many teams aside from the Packers have a lot of depth.
And many of their players were unproven and unknown prior to the run last year. If a couple of the lower round draft picks can continue to develop then I don’t think the team is all that hard off, but you don’t know until the players are in games. The Niners need to find their Victor Cruz who seemingly comes out of nowhere and plays well. Luckily the team seems to have hit on some of their more recent mid-round picks which has helped a lot (Bowman, Culliver, Hunter, etc.)
Twitter: @Joshuahss
Pass happy league...
Secondary is arguably the most important piece of the defense now. You’ll never have the greatest depth ever at every position, but if a starter goes down in the secondary for this team and we don’t add anyone next year, then we are essentially screwed. Other positions can be worked around.
by 9thevolution on Jan 4, 2012 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
I know one thing
We don’t need dline depth, we have Jim Tomsula.
Attack this day with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. ~ Jack Harbaugh
Absolutely...
I wonder why so many people think we need a 1st round DL to replace Smith. Smith is one of a kind and you won’t get the same type of player again, but we will likely progress with more of our pressure coming from the OLBs and the DL settling into the typical 3-4 mold. We will be fine with high pass rushers and mid-to-late round talent on the DL to occupy blockers.
by 9thevolution on Jan 4, 2012 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
I feel the same way.
DL depth is fairly low on the list of pressing needs at this point, with RJF filling in adequately when he has to and hope that one of the other young players starts to come around.
I’d say CB or S is a big need depending on who re-signs, and either way they still need to try and continue players back there. The Niners should be in a good position to draft for talent and fit moreso than need this year, which will be nice.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
Why select a DL in early rounds?
Because the “selector” doesn’t know the team as well as we do! That said, my Mock 1.0 has us drafting defensive linemen (a DE and a DT) in the 6th and 7th rounds … likely Practice Squad candidates.
by 49erFanSince1950 on Jan 4, 2012 3:50 PM PST up reply actions
Mock drafts are just that
MOCK drafts. Don’t ever trust then.
Let's giggity giggity Go 49ers!!!
by Kittles on Jan 4, 2012 4:05 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
looking long term
I think I’d prefer to see the team franchise Rogers and sign Goldson, if this is an either or scenario. If we couldn’t resign Rogers next year I’m much more comfortable starting Brown and a then-3rd year player in Culliver at corner than I am starting Whitner and Smith at safety. We’ve seen that combo already. That being said, I think it more likely that Goldson makes it impossible not to franchise him as there are not a lot of solid free agent safeties according to the article linked in the post.
by redgolddynasty on Jan 4, 2012 6:48 AM PST via iPhone app reply actions
I hear you, but ...
Assuming that they both stay with the Niners and neither is blindsided by a major injury, we will have to replace Rogers before Goldson. My personal opinion is that we draft both a CB and a S this year. Together with Culliver, the drafted CB will become the starting CBs of the future. The drafted S will be a backup and special teams player in his first year, but may become a starter at either safety position in the future … more likely replacing Whitner than Goldson because of age difference. Therefore, I think that the better play is to sign Rogers to a 3-year deal and, if we can’t get a similar deal with Goldson, Franchise him.
by 49erFanSince1950 on Jan 4, 2012 3:58 PM PST up reply actions
Rogers is more important to keep, in my opinion.
And I’d like to see them keep Goldson around as well depending on the pricetag. I think either way the team will be looking at a DB in the first couple rounds of the draft. I’d like to see
Twitter: @Joshuahss
Maybe it's just me but I really am pretty confident with TBrown and Culliver at my starting CBs next year.
Spencer is gonna need to restructure too BTW or he’s gone.
I'm not.
In my opinion Rogers has made the others better this year, and keeping him for at least one more year is vital. But the main reason I think it is so important is that so many teams are now using three and four WR formations, and having depth there is important. Teams need more than just 2 reliable corners especially if they are trying to match up with the Saints and Packers in the playoffs. I also believe there is no way Spencer comes back.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
I'd say there is a 75% chance Goldson gets the franchise tag, 25% for Rogers.
Rogers would obviously be more expensive but at his age…getting 1yr outta him could be his last season in his “prime”.
Predictions
CB Tramaine Brock (EFA) – EFA, he’ll be back
OLB Ahmad Brooks – 50/50…99 Problems needs to start. Draft need.
LB Blake Costanzo – he’s 27 y.o. give him a 3 yr deal.
WR Braylon Edwards – already solved
WR Ted Ginn – think he leaves due to bigger offer from a crap team
S Dashon Goldson – offer him the same deal as last year, if no franchise
LB Tavares Gooden – 50/50, whatever
LB Larry Grant (RFA) – 50/50, he prolly played himself into a starter offer for another team
WR Joshua Morgan – resign, 3yr
TE Justin Peelle – gone w/ Byham back and I bet they draft a TE
RG Chilo Rachal – I’ll help you pack
CB Carlos Rogers – 50/50, 3yr deal would be ideal but he’s gonna want one last pay day
FB Moran Norris – bye, thinking they bring in a UDFA that battles for a PS spot
QB Alex Smith – back im sure, unless Peyton can be had
S Reggie Smith – resign, 3yr deal on the cheap
OL Adam Snyder – resign, 3yr. thinking Kilgore gets a shot at starting RG.
DB C.J. Spillman (RFA) – 2yr deal
WR Brett Swain – prolly gone
DT Will Tukuafu (EFA) – EFA, he’ll be back cheaply
S Madieu Williams – bye
I’d also like to mention that Spencer will need to restructure his 3.2 million contract or he’ll be cut.
for most part you were doing well till.....
bq.
QB Alex Smith – back im sure, unless Peyton can be had
Can’t see 49ers FO giving up assets to trade for Peyton. Also you would have to bring in a massive contract for a player at 37 years old when he plays & 3 previous neck surgeries!!
Niners,Nets,Reds & USC!!!
The Most Interesting Man In The World---->Mikhail Prokhorov!!!
by Kidd2Petrovic on Jan 4, 2012 7:53 AM PST up reply actions
Even if he is cut I see him getting a huge deal on the open market.
And that is a risky proposition given his health concerns. A team like the Redskins or Dolphins will throw whatever they have at him, so it will really come down to if he wants to take less. That is probably not going to happen.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
Ok, you're Peyton...do you need money? no. do you know your injury is a concern? yes. Do you sign with a non-contender like the Skins, Phins? no.
Peyton has nothing left to prove in this league…he will sign with a true contender and he can sign a cap friendly deal (honestly who is gonna risk a huge contract on him that won’t out some out clauses and incentives). What contenders could use a QB upgrade…9ers are #1 on that list.
by Coretete on Jan 4, 2012 8:18 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You are right about the Niners being the top contender with a QB need.
But I think you are underestimating Manning’s ego. He may know about the health concerns, but players take more money all the time as a symbol that they are among the best at that position. Not to mention that teams sign big, high risk contracts all the time. I mentioned the Redskins (Snyder absolutely would do it) and Phins (the owner is looking to make a splash) specifically as they would be the ones to do it. Now I could be completely wrong, but I’m not going to get my hopes up about him joining the team until he is wearing a 49er jersey.
It will also depend on how far the Niners go in the playoffs. I don’t see them breaking the bank for Manning if they win the S.B. and Smith performs adequately, but I don’t know what they would do if he is terrible and they lose their first game.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
Well the Colts OL was pretty bad this year too.
I think Manning is so good at getting rid of the ball quickly that he masks problems along the front. That is not one of the issues which would cause him to go choose a different team.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
Peyton had a bad OL his whole career, if you make quick reads and get rid of the ball you don't take sacks. Also, our run game would be even more lethal which means less hits on the QB.
Our OL isn’t as bad as ppl think, there are many teams way way worse off than us.
more money or more titles...hmmmm? Peyton doesn't need the money and what's a bigger ego stroke...I say SB rings.
The 9ers wouldn’t break the bank for Peyton, he’d have to sign a cap friendly contract to sign w/ an immediate contender like the 9ers. Even if he is 75% of his former self, we are talking about one of the best 10 QBs of all time here…our whole offense would improve immediately…think about stacking to stop the run vs. Peyton?
I'm not disagreeing with you that he would be an upgrade.
The two issues I see standing in the way are money and his injury. The team will likely not pay him as much as other teams out there, so we will see what he does in that regard. As for his neck, I’m less worried about him performing at 75% than I am him getting re-injured and going down for another year. Since signing him would likely mean Smith goes elsewhere, that would leave the Niners with CK at QB.
If it works out as you say, I’d love for him to be on the team. I just honestly don’t see it happning.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
Your ideas still don't warrant Manning coming here...
I understand personally if some fans want him here, because of no faith in AleX. But he just “mangaged” for a lack of a better term, the team you love to 13 -3 with no off-season. Plus as a franchise it still doesn’t make buisness sense to sign for a QB that is going to cost more than AleX & will have to learn new terminology(Peyton didn’t play in WCO). You yourself listed 21 FA’s on this team. Their are glaring needs besides QB on this team, ie: OLB,DB,S,G,WR where that potenetial money can be used to resigning players on the team or going with other FA’s/Draft. Peyton Manning is not a necessity with the way this team is currently constructed.
Niners,Nets,Reds & USC!!!
The Most Interesting Man In The World---->Mikhail Prokhorov!!!
by Kidd2Petrovic on Jan 4, 2012 9:02 AM PST up reply actions
Can Alex "manage" us next year vs. what I expect will be the hardest schedule in the league? (Vs. Brees/Brady/Rogers/Eli/Stafford?) Our D is good but we need better RZ and 3rd down play.
I just think the 9ers would be making a mistake not to bring Peyton in for a meeting IF he is cut (no trading for him) to see what he wants. The 9ers are way under the salary cap…so what if Peyton costs $…you can’t skimp on a QB.
The questions you are currently asking warrant giving Alex a full off-season...
To see how he can evolve from what he did this year. Now, if you don’t trust him, I see why due to his previous 6 years. I sorta look as those 6 years as Drew Brees ala San Deigo. Now can he be Drew Brees NO?? I can’t say that at all, that’s stretching it. But this year & next year with this competent coaching staff, they will determine what AleX up-side/limitations can truely be. But also let us not forget the 49er FO traded up in the 2nd round to pick Colin Kapernick as well. I wouldn’t think the FO would do this if Harbaalke didn’t think this kid can be come a good legitimate starting NFL QB in the future.
Niners,Nets,Reds & USC!!!
The Most Interesting Man In The World---->Mikhail Prokhorov!!!
by Kidd2Petrovic on Jan 4, 2012 9:40 AM PST up reply actions
also 2 out of the 5 qbs you named the 49ers just beat this year
And Alex definitely was important in coming with the W in those games.
Niners,Nets,Reds & USC!!!
The Most Interesting Man In The World---->Mikhail Prokhorov!!!
by Kidd2Petrovic on Jan 4, 2012 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
i swear people don't think about or understand football X's and O's and personnel
Football personnel isn’t just like plugging a .300 batter for a .220 batter (something the SF Giants need to do more of).
Manning has been his own defacto Offensive Coordinator for most of a decade. He makes the reads, route adjustments, protection calls etc… at pre-snap. To say the Colts have relied completely on Manning and Tom Moore’s pass happy system is an understatement.
Does that fit with Harbaugh’s offensive philosophy? Uhm…no. Power running, CONTROLLED passing attack. Even with a good QB and a more open offense, Harbaugh still runs an offense that leans on power running and a passing game with specific match ups and situations to go downfield….even with Andrew Luck Harbaugh doesn’t just let it fly.
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 9:52 AM PST up reply actions
it would be like being asked to drive a semi-truck
with step by step driving instructions being fed to you. when you’re used to. being an Indy Car driver. ..in terms of offensive philosophy and control. also, your pit crew is no longer directly under your control either.
it’s more likely Harbaugh ..who’s pretty conservative offensively isn’t going to be comfortable with Manning.
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
guess we can agree to disagree on this all day long.
Harbaugh is conservation because of Alex imo and no I don’t care what he did in college, NFL is a different beast. I doubt Peyton even ends up on the 9ers, but my whole original point was that the 9ers have to at least meet with him and see how things go. Peyton won’t sign with a non-contender, that makes 0 sense. I could see him on the Jets or possibly Houston even.
I don't get
WHY you believe Harbaugh is conservative because of Alex. NOTHING in his background says otherwise. I keep coming across the same wishful thinking by fans that keep waiting for the Offense to open up. For the Niners to MAGICALLY get a new QB and the Offense become a Juggernaut. again waaaaay to much Fantasy Football fans wanting plug and play players.
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
Harbaugh is not conservative because of Alex
He had one of the very best college QBs with an excellent OL at his disposal, and was still doing the same kind of thing.
Of course he can adjust, so can Manning – but both will likely prefer some other arrangement.
I disagree with this.
I don’t think the team is going to get Manning, but I think Harbaugh would adapt if givin one of the best QBs of all time if he is healthy. Manning was still producing at a very high level last year and his team that was so bad this year went 10-6. It would be a sign of system arrogance if they thought Peyton would not automatically upgrade the offense. Who knows if Manning would be ok with that, but the coach would find a way to make it work if he is on the team.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
again, fan fantasy football plug and play mentality
Manning won’t run a paint by numbers offense.
so you’d have to TEACH all of the receivers to be able to read coverages like Manning so they’d all be on the same page as Manning so that when he makes route adjustments or when they have option patterns the receivers and Manning are all on the same page.
You’d have to have Manning become familiar with the Niner’s blocking schemes to be able to make adjustments for them within the Offense…OR…change the offensive philosophy and nomenclature and teach all of the linemen how to understand any protections Manning makes in his own familiar language (cause it isn’t WCO terminology or blocking schemes).
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
I'm glad you've talked to Peyton and are letting us know what he'll do. If he is cut don't you think he'll have to adapt to a new team, he has maybe 3 years left at best.
He’s gonna have to be a team player, fantasy football has nothing to do with that. These guys are footbally players, they can be taught…we’ve had a new offense for 7 years now.
sure, he'll have to adapt but it's a matter of how much
The Niner run won of the most controlled/simplest offenses. In terms of offensive scheme and philosophy it’s the polar opposite of what Peyton is used to running. Most other teams do run a fair amount of option routes and have presnap reads for the QB in their system to make adjustments. The Niners are one of the few teams that don’t. There are two plays called and Alex has a preset number of receivers to make his reads, step by step based on his read of the coverage. There are no or very little adjustments on the fly, if it’s not there he goes to the underneath route or he throws it away. A more complex system would be needed to put in place (which a lot of other teams have) that would take advantage of Manning’s strengths.
You’re right now matter where he goes he’s not going to have the free reign as his own virtual offensive coordinator. But he will want to go where the passing attack is the focus of the offense or at least has the potential to be so. Arizona comes to mind (but with money tied up with Kolb, i don’t see it happening). The Texans as well (plus he’d have the added benefit of a strong running game and a defense)…of course it would depend on Schaub’s status. Miami would be interesting because he’d have Marshall and they’re a QB hungry team…but they may want to rebuild for the longterm.
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
If I'm Peyton...9ers are my #1 choice, followed by Houston, Baltimore, Jets
9ers are also in one of the weakest divisions to win = automatic playoff home game.
my reasoning is falling on deaf ears
with no rational rebuttal.
plug and play fantasy football fans sigh insert player A into team B and let the magic happen (never mind how it all works).
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 11:46 AM PST up reply actions
Example
plug and play fantasy football fans sigh insert player A into team B and let the magic happen (never mind how it all works).
See: Redskins, Washington
by 9thevolution on Jan 4, 2012 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
beating a dead horse at this point..I think Peyton would fit, you don't agree
not much more can be said, it’s all speculation…call it fantasy football if it makes you feel smarter.
my point is that you haven't explained
WHY in football terms you believe Peyton is a fit other than he’s a good QB and the Niners don’t have a prolific passing attack. Talk football and make a case. Otherwise you’re playing fantasy football.
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
I don't believe Manning as a QB has to be a fit.
He is quite amazing and probably one of the few players who you can plug and play right away with few worries. It will take some tinkering with the offense, but it would be worth it imo.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
I have to agree here....
I don’t think in any way should the Niners pursue Manning even if he’s a FA (since he’ll be way too costly), but to insinuate that he wouldn’t fit here because of the type of offense he’s opperated in the past is a bit foolish. Manning is incredibly accurate and knows how to anticipate the break on a route. He would very likely be an improvement in week 1 of the regular season regardless of differences between the two systems.
by 9thevolution on Jan 4, 2012 12:58 PM PST up reply actions
ok, you are trying to be a chat room hero and all of you football knowledge is very under whelming.
He’s Peyton Manning, you don’t think he can fit this run heavy offense we use? What football knowledge do you need…put Peyton behind our current offense and teams will be more reluctant to stack vs. the run. He’s more accurate than Alex, he can read a defense better, he’s been to the SB and lead teams. To argue that he’d have to learn a new system is weak…we have an off season this year. Anyway I’m tired of this and go ahead and keep referencing fantasy football, that’s not played out on every other message board.
good lord
NO THE REST OF THE TEAM WOULD HAVE TO LEARN A MORE COMPLEX OFFENSE.
All the things that make Peyton’s offense go in Indy DOESN’T EXIST IN THE NINER’S OFFENSE. I tried to explain that to you.
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 1:05 PM PST up reply actions
apologize for my breakdown of civility
…my frustration is showing
let me try one last example. the last time the Niners put in a proprietary offense was when they brought in Martz. To make that even work a little bit they had to bring in JT O’Turnover as a QB experienced in Martz’s offense (though he was no Warner) and more importantly Isaac Bruce who was the primary receiving threat because of the way Bruce could properly read defenses and be on the same page as the QB. It’s an offensive system and philosophy. In order for the Niner’s passing attack to be better under Manning, the receivers would have to read coverage and be in sych with Manning. Or they could bring in Reggie Wayne (who will be available). Bringing in Jeff Saturday would be a good idea too….all of the rest of the offense would have to relearn a more complex offense. but just plugging in Manning by himself would be difficult to make successful in the short term.
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
Now you're reaching....
Manning would adapt to the offensive philosophy here, not the other way around. Manning would not be on this team if he thought he was going to be running the Indy offense. He would run Harbaugh’s offense just as Smith has this year with a more open passing game due to Manning’s accuracy and skill. Manning’s talents exceed that of Alex Smith, thus our offense excels from day 1 with him on the team.
Have to agree with Josh and 9th below...
you try to make a good point, but Manning can run Harbaugh’s offense…and he would have to know what he’s getting himself into if he were to sign in SF.
But would you rather have Alex Smith than Manning?
Everything else being equal, Smith has only 1 more year in the system and Peyton is better than him in every way except for his mobility. There is just no way Manning can go anywhere and institute his full offense from the get go with all new players around him. Both he and the OC will have to adapt no matter where he goes.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
And what would our record be?
After Manning is injured in the week 2 and Kaep is in?
No, our OL is not that good, and no we would not be a #1 seed anyway. We would still be a #2 seed. Which we are. Without Peyton.
So what is there to imagine?
This isn't necessarily true.
I’d put money down that Manning would be able to step in and run the Niners offense better than Smith if given a full offseason and training camp. If Alex picked it up that fast, I’d have to imagine someone like Peyton would as well.
If Manning leaves then he will be in a new offense no matter where he goes. He is not going to step in anywhere and automatically institute the same system he was running in Indy.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
Only places he steps in and takes over as de-facto OC are desperate markets
Such as the Jets or Dolphins. Other than that, yeah there’s nothing that says he can’t conform to a different offensive philosophy. The only reason he does all those things is because he was so well-versed in that offense after all that time and he could function at a level that defenses couldn’t keep up with consistantly.
I disagree with you here.
I think that either Miami or Washington could be a contender with a healthy Manning, as the Colts have been, and they would be more willing to break the bank for him.
One major problem would be waiting to sign Manning and letting Smith go elsewhere, only for Peyton to choose another team. The FO will have to be careful and make sure they at least end up with one of them.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
they COULD be...but the 9ers already are a contender with a top D & ST
Peyton has until March i think until his 28million bonus is due. We’ll know soon what’ sup.
Of course Manning could run the Niner's Offense
But that’s like asking Picaso to paint by numbers. The prolific passing doesn’t happen until the ENTIRE TEAM can make the adjustment to a more complex offense. Meaning Crabtree , Davis and Morgan would have to be able to make the same pre-snap judgements that Manning does. Otherwise you’re still running a basic paint by numbers Offense with limited reads. Sure Manning is going to make more throws than Smith and you could call more passing plays but it doesn’t TACTICALLY work until entire Offensive system is insych . I’m not questioning Manning’s ability. I’m questioning the Niner’s system and personnel fitting Manning.
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 1:31 PM PST up reply actions
You make it fit if you have Manning.
This whole argument is crazy to me as it would be the same issue no matter where he goes. While its true that having a complex offense helped Manning, I think at this stage in his career he could be helped by having a solid running game and a little less pressure on his shoulders.
Like I said, I don’t think its happening. But saying that it shouldn’t because of fit does not compute with me. Some players need to fit into a system, and others transcend that need.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
you didn't read what I posted earlier
The Niners don’t use option routes and hot reads as much (or at all) like most other teams and Manning success is predicated on that kind of offense. If Manning goes anywhere, it’s almost certain there will be some pre-snap reads , adjustments and option routes already built into the offense. Not so with the Niners. It will have to be installed and the rest of the offense will have to get on board.
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
I did read it.
But I don’t think it matters as much as you do. Manning would immediately make the team better and they can evolve as an offense as they go. It might not be the best fit for him or the team, but with his talent they could make it work. I believe where our opinions differ is whether the two sides could make it work, and thats probably not going to change.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
why are you guys still arguing about this??
It’s highly unlikely 49ers FO is intrested in Peyton Manning!! Harbaugh said it himself, “ALEX is a 49er & I want him back here!!”
Niners,Nets,Reds & USC!!!
The Most Interesting Man In The World---->Mikhail Prokhorov!!!
by Kidd2Petrovic on Jan 4, 2012 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
Coaches say stuff all the time about wanting players back.
But if an upgrade is available you explore the option. I’d expect nothing less from our coaching staff and FO. Not saying they should bring him in, but ignoring that he is available because Alex Smith is the QB would not be in the best interests of the franchise.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
I'd counter that with Manning's health issues he might just want to go to a team with a running game.
And if you have a player of his caliber, it is up to the coaching staff to change their philosophy to put him in the best position to succeed. I still don’t think he’s coming to SF, but I’d hope that Harbaugh would be willing to alter what he does if a top 5 QB in the league joins the Niners.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
that running game hasn't kept Alex upright
of course I’d say at least a third of that is Alex’s fault for holding on to the ball too long.
But still, I’m pretty sure Harbaugh wants to continue to develop the passing attack. and he will open it up on his terms with either a more competent Alex Smith or a top QB. But I don’t see him radically altering his power running offense to a pass happy offense. that would be a complete change in philosophy vs. simply opening up the existing offense.
In terms of offensive philosophic fit (and not offensive system) I’d say Schaub, Rivers and Ryan are better fits because all of them are in offenses that rely more on the ground game and operate on a lot of play action.
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with you on the philosophy.
But the mark of a good coach is being able to adapt to player strengths. Thinking that Manning couldn’t or wouldn’t work as a Niner because of that is crazy to me. I like Alex Smith, but if the price wasn’t ridiculous I’d be more than happy to see Peyton as a 49er.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
sure to a certain degree
which is why I listed those other more highly touted QB’s as examples of QB’s that Harbaugh would probably have a better time of adapting his offense to their strengths.
But Joe Montana couldn’t have taken Dan Fout’s place in the Air Coryell offense. And I don’t think Dan Marino had the footwork and precision timing/discipline to run Walsh’s offense.
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
While that may be true,
I don’t think you can pass up Peyton Manning if your current QB is Alex Smith. If the price is reasonable (and I don’t think it will be which makes this moot) and he checks out medically, there is simply no justification for not bringing him in no matter what system is currently run. We are not talking about a mid-tier QB, but a top 5 in the league and possibly all time QB.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
I dont knw why Goldson's value is so low
sing the man already. he’s been patient for years. reward the guy. 5 years 22 million makes sense. offer Rodgers a 3 year 14 million deal. he’s solid but his 6 picks are a by-product of Vic Fang/Tomsula/ front seven. he’s waaaaay overated. I seen him get beat all year long. Goldson should retire a 49er. he’s ronnie lott reincarnated
He was offered 5/25 this off season and turned it down...
then when he saw the market was “soft” resigned for the 1 year deal he has now!! So appearntly He wants more than 22 – 25 mil if it’s going to be a five year contract.
Niners,Nets,Reds & USC!!!
The Most Interesting Man In The World---->Mikhail Prokhorov!!!
by Kidd2Petrovic on Jan 4, 2012 8:50 AM PST up reply actions
this is in reference to Dashon Goldson
Niners,Nets,Reds & USC!!!
The Most Interesting Man In The World---->Mikhail Prokhorov!!!
by Kidd2Petrovic on Jan 4, 2012 9:04 AM PST up reply actions
More like a poor man's Ronnie Lott.
I don’t trust that he will be the same player once he gets paid, and I think someone else will overpay him. I wouldn’t mind him being re-signed on a reasonable deal but that probably won’t happen. The franchise tag will be the best bet.
And I completely disagree with you about Rogers. He has gotten beat but not as much as our other CBs would have going against top tier WRs. He has always been a good cover corner who’s hands were suspect, and he seems to have fixed that at least for this year. There are too many teams who run 3-4 WR sets now not to bring him back without a replacement already lined up. Depth would be a huge issue in that case.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
I would not dump Rodgers
I simply believe he’s just ok as a CB. Pro bowler, yes. But numbers sometimes lie. He should be paid mid-tier money. Suprisingly he’s out-performed Nhamdi Asumuaga this year. Nhamdi really looked bad though. Revis, Bailey, and those guys are on the next level.
He’s not just OK. He played just as well in Washington, just without the picks so people were down on him.
The concern is his age, how much longer can he play at a high level.
Attack this day with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. ~ Jack Harbaugh
This.
Carlos Rogers is a legitimate number 1 corner in the league, and the team doesn’t have that yet without him. His age is a factor but I don’t think a three year deal would be a bad thing, or even four years if there are few guarantees at the end.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
Goldson is not a reliable deep coverage guy
He’s a big play hitter and interceptor. Run support strong safeties aren’t valued as much as the deep coverage guys (the Niners being an exception, it’s a pass happy league).
Coaches would prefer a reliable guy to a big play big mistake guy. Goldson has 6-7 interceptions this year (which will get some Team’s attention in FA). but he’s still been vulnerable deep to big pass plays at least once or twice a game…sometimes the receiver makes the play on him and sometimes not. It happens because Goldson is going for the big play or simply out of position and doesn’t understand the routes being run against him. Contrast that with Whitner who also gets beaten deep at times…when Whitner is beaten, it’s not because he’s out of position or trying to make a big play (hit), it’s because he’s simply a step slow or the receiver just beats him in position.
by allforfunnplay on Jan 4, 2012 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
goldson turned down 5 year 25 million; no way he takes 5 years 22million after making the pro bowl!; same with rodgers who is making more than 5 million a year right now!
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 4, 2012 11:40 AM PST up reply actions
We can't be interested in Ronnie Lott anymore...
Clearly you haven’t heard of the “defenseless receiver” rule. Safeties are completely obsolete unless they have cover skills and Goldson’s, while very much improved, are not top-tier.
I’d say Goldson deserves a new contract, but I wouldn’t completely hitch the wagon to him. Need to find our next FS in the draft either this year or next and that will be largely dependant on what happens with Goldson this year.
by 9thevolution on Jan 4, 2012 12:24 PM PST up reply actions
Bold to mention Goldston and Lott in the same vein
Lott was a game changer, a player you game plan around like an Ed Reed, Troy P, etc. Goldston has yet to step up to that level consistently (I am stressing consisitently bc he has had some awesome games this year). Goldston deserves the franchise tag while Rodgers gets his contract. Earlier this year he said he wanted 5-6 years. Give him something around there and front load it just in case he doesn’t getting with age (ie Woodson). He’s always been a solid corner unlike Clements. Solid in coverage, reading keys, playing sound and an underrated tackler. Culliver, TB and any DBs we daft will surely benefit. We already have Whitner for another 2 years, let’s lock up the backed of the D
any CB better than roger next season?
Goldson should be resign, he should bring in good few yrs as safety for niners
but if we can avoid F Tag avoid it, negotiation is the key
As others have said
The most obvious candidate is franchise Goldson, then extend Rogers.
extrabaggs
"Just your typical Giants scoring rally: A faceburger on the basepaths, two errors from the second baseman and a bases-loaded balk."
not really; the team knows goldson much better than rodgers
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 4, 2012 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
Yes they know very well that he turned down a reasonable offer because he thinks too highly of himself
Rogers, meanwhile, came to team that was completely overlooked because he was in the same situation; how did that work out for both of them? I’d bet that, aside from our depth issues at safety, Rogers is the higher priority for this team to sign long-term.
by 9thevolution on Jan 4, 2012 12:28 PM PST up reply actions
not really; the team knows goldson much better than rodgers
and culliver, brown, brock could be starters next year
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 4, 2012 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
I really don't think knowing anything about Goldson means a thing...
You are insinuating what Baalke and Harbaugh think of their team based on a player’s tenure here. Don’t forget that Baalke didn’t draft Goldson or try to throw big money at him in FA and Harbaugh has no attachment to anyone on this team except Alex Smith who he publicly vouched for as his QB for 2011 and now beyond.
I would be willing to bet that given a choice between one or the other, both of them are going to choose Rogers. Remember that the team was completely ready to move on without Goldson this year until he came crawling back because no one was going to pay him big money. And after that he wasn’t made a starter until after a few weeks into the regular season.
how often do the niners go out and give big money to free agents?
not very often, niners offered 5 year 25 million to goldson before he had a probowl year; before. they will probably offer goldson more now but he is going to test the market again. there is immense value in knowing a player and how he will perform on your team and in your system. of all of the cbs the niners signed they signed rodgers because baalke knew he from when he worked for their mutual former team. Goldson probwol and six picks changes his market value.
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 4, 2012 2:39 PM PST up reply actions
I'd rather franchise Goldson and trade him if he doesn't accept a reasonable 4 year deal - 4 years for 18-20 million seems fair.
Re-sign Rogers to a 2-3 year deal. Let Brooks walk.
Alex Smith 86%+ QB rating with 22+ TDs this season, hopefully! :)
I think.....
we may have forgotten how bad our OLB plays has been in recent history…. i contribute half of that to the new coaching staff but you have got to give brooks a look at a long term deal… hes out playing haralson for sure…. i believe haralsons deal is up in 2014 … we could cut him before that if his deal is too big in the last year…..
It just depends on what kind of deal he is looking for.
If someone wants to overpay any of the players by a ridiculous amount then the team should probably let them walk, but I’d be fine with any of them being brought back at a reasonable rate.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
Would not franchise either one. Resign Reggie Smith, C.J. Spillman, use a high draft pick on a safety and let them compete for the job. I’d also let Rogers walk, draft Cliff Harris from Oregon. He’ll probable drop some in the draft because of his off field issues. I’d take a chance on Harris, they took a chance on T. Brown he had simular issues coming out of college and he’s worked out ok. Harris has even more skills than Brown so why ? not take a chance.
by bmcrae83@yahoo.com on Jan 4, 2012 11:17 AM PST reply actions
Why not take a chance?
Because this team is primed to contend for years and losing both your top FS and CB would be a big blow. Rogers is a solid number 1 corner and neither Brown or Culliver has shown they can replace him full time. I’ll trust what Harbaalke do, but I would doubt they would let both walk if they can help it.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
You do realize that Smith has been bad this year and Spillman only plays ST?
The franchise tag is a huge benefit for a team. And using it on a pro bowl safety can buy you a year to prepare the next guy to become the starter. And Brown is starting because of experience, rookie corners aren’t usually meant to walk in and start day 1. So, Cliff Harris is a definite no to replace Rogers next year.
by 9thevolution on Jan 4, 2012 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
That's not such a good plan
With TJ and Ray Ray both going back to school the FS class is horrible. There are some guys I like that could be decent backups or maybe start with a couple years of seasoning but nobody I would even think of starting.
Every time Jamie Dukes says something enlightening and informative about football Jerry Rice and I mount up on our flying grizzly bears and claim pirate treasure from the moon. That's how often it happens.
Some players could surprise as happens every year.
But overall I agree with this. Hoping to get lucky on a draft pick while leaving the team so thin in the secondary would be a dangerous game to play. Goldson is far from perfect, but he is good enough that he can’t be just replaced by just anyone.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
After all the years of poor secondary play, how any 49er fan could want Rogers to walk is beyond me…
Attack this day with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. ~ Jack Harbaugh
by Virginia9er on Jan 4, 2012 11:21 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Because reports are he’s asking for big money, he and Niners are not even close. Don’t make the same mistake they made with Clements. Chris Johnson got big money didn’t produce. I don’t trust players that all of a sudden play at a probowl level when they are in a contract year.
by bmcrae83@yahoo.com on Jan 4, 2012 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
Rogers has nothing to do with Clements or Chris Johnson, their situations are not similar…
Show me these reports.
Attack this day with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. ~ Jack Harbaugh
Not to mention that he has been a good CB before.
Its only his Ints which have spiked. I think he is much more of a priority than Goldson, and the Niners will lock him up for 3 years once they are able to.
Twitter: @Joshuahss
Actually, last I heard was that he was interested in staying on a deal that was "fair" to both him and the team...
That in no way says that he wants big money. You are fabricating things simply to fantacize about your draft day dreams that do not fit into team philosophy.
by 9thevolution on Jan 4, 2012 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
franchise tag is coming
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 4, 2012 11:43 AM PST up reply actions
Goldson
is playing the best ball he ever has. I was not a huge fan before but he has impressed me. He gets after the ball and can cover. He is a good blend of cover and run support. I think last years attempt may have brought him down to earth a little. He made the pro bowl but he was also on a great defense. Those go hand and hand to some extent.
Reggie Smith can gap fill at SS and FS and thats why he’s on this team but he is by no means a starter.
If we do franchise him what safety are we going to take that can be ready by next year? Not a lot of talent in this draft at safety. Maybe Lester. Lets not forget you have to have guy with big range bc Whitner is a liability in coverage. We need Goldson more than Rogers but i think we can have both.
Goldson misses too many tackles
and often is out of position in coverage. We can do much better with the money.
Harbaugh will find a QB and he will succeed.
he has gotten better this year and as the season has progrossed. he even made the pro bowl this year.
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 4, 2012 4:20 PM PST up reply actions
and you have to think about his replacement if he leaves? will his replacement be better than him?
is there an earl thomas or eric berry in this years draft? Goldson is probably the best free agent safety
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 4, 2012 4:21 PM PST up reply actions
Just looks as far as the Seattle game and Doug Baldwin's TD
Pro Bowlers make that open field ankle. Goldston is a nice to have, not a priority. Rodgers, Brooks and a backup ILB are keys
Agree with franchising Goldson if he doesn't deal
Conveniently the franchise number for safeties is just a million more than we offered him yearly last season. That gives us another year to deal with the problem at safety because right now we have way too many problems to address.
19 out of 53 players on our active roster are free agents, we still have to replace Braylon / Hastings, and likely Shawntae Spencer will be cut so there is another roster spot to fill.
And unless we do some wheeling and dealing come draft day or get some comp picks we only have 7 selections and they will all be in the bottom of the rounds.
Every time Jamie Dukes says something enlightening and informative about football Jerry Rice and I mount up on our flying grizzly bears and claim pirate treasure from the moon. That's how often it happens.
way to many problems to address?
having eight probowlers is clearly not enought; niners need 22 players to make the probowl!
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 4, 2012 2:41 PM PST up reply actions
Learn to read. I didn't mention the popularity bowl once.
We have to re-sign or replace 40% of the team this off-season — and it’s not so easy to re-sign all your players when they are also receiving offer sheets from other teams which may be higher than what you were willing to pay.
Every time Jamie Dukes says something enlightening and informative about football Jerry Rice and I mount up on our flying grizzly bears and claim pirate treasure from the moon. That's how often it happens.
"learn how to read"
have you read the roster? before you make ignorant comments go take a critical thinking class so you can think properly.
qb alex smith will be back, kaepernick, and that other rookie
rb-all under contract
wr crabs, williams, resign morgan and maybe ginn and draft picks
te- all under contract
oline- kilgore can start and draft the third back up oline
dline all important players are under contract
olb- possible to resign brooks if not aldon can start next to parys and draft depth
ilb- draft depth or resign “back ups” or look in free agency for decent “back ups”
cb- culliver, brown, brock, spencer, draft pick plus that guy on injured reserve
safety- resign or franchise goldson, plus draft for depth
if you think about the niners can let most of their free agents walk and be just fine, most of the “free agents” are back ups and will be lucky to sign with a team next year. Larry Grant is is the only one that “maybe” could find a starting job elsewhere. No more stupid/ignorant comments about reading because you just put your foot in your mouth.
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 4, 2012 4:18 PM PST up reply actions
You're making alot of assumptions
I do apologize for the reading comment. You can read.
You just can’t count.
Every time Jamie Dukes says something enlightening and informative about football Jerry Rice and I mount up on our flying grizzly bears and claim pirate treasure from the moon. That's how often it happens.
and you still can not think
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 5, 2012 4:23 AM PST up reply actions
Morgan
His days of being a starter on this team are numbered if they havent already passed. Will he want to be a backup?…. i think this is a deep WR class. We could get two guys in mid rounds that would be solid. I wouldnt count out Jeffery falling to us…. i have seen him around 22 to the browns and i dont think he’ll test well and could get pushed right to us.. .maybe even worth a small trade up.
He won't be a backup
Everyone loves Morgan. He has the most chemistry with Alex. And the 9ers style is a rotating WR corps anyway.
Attack this day with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. ~ Jack Harbaugh
Did you ever think
we rotated in the past bc we got our WR’s at a Garage Sale?…. i like morgan, i do and he was a steal in the 6th round but im telling you that he is not a starter and his days are numbered …
I never see Crabs rotate… Williams is showing why he has to be on the field … they are the guys in a two WR set. Morgan is maybe the third but there is a good chance we draft someone that out plays him. I see our 3 wide being Crabs, Williams, Rookie, and then you have VD…. he will be low balled or told to walk i think and i think thats whats best for our team to evolve … wish him the best though
I really don't know where you are coming up with this stuff
Obviously Crabs is the #1, but when Edwards, Ginn and Williams were all playing Crabs did rotate out. All the WR positions in this offense are interchangeable.
Harbaugh has already made it public they want Joshua Morgan back, he’s not going anywhere and he’s right behind Crabtree as the best two WRs on the team. By Week 1 next year KW may have something to say about that, but the fact remains Morgan will be here, no doubt about it.
And unless we bring in Matt Millen in some advisory capacity (and I repeatedly bang my head against the wall), no one is drafting 2 WRs to compete for a starting spot…We had injuries at the position, we aren’t the Rams.
Attack this day with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. ~ Jack Harbaugh
"Come on, man!!" Let's be honest and realistic here ...
Neither Crabtree or Morgan will EVER be more than a #2. Ginn barely qualifies as a #3. Kyle Williams has potential to become a #2 in the slot. Bottom line … we don’t have a #1 WR and haven’t had for quite some time. I think that the hope was that Edwards would turn himself around and become our #1, but it obviously didn’t work out. Eventually we will draft a guy who is capable of being the #1. I’d like to see it be this year … but we have more serious needs to fill first.
by 49erFanSince1950 on Jan 4, 2012 4:21 PM PST up reply actions
Not ever?
Hard argument to make. Btw, I never said we don’t need to draft a WR or address the position. We do. (And Crabs could be on his way to being a #1, time will tell.)
But suggesting we need to draft 2 mid round WRs to compete for a starting role and let go of Morgan is absurd.
Attack this day with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. ~ Jack Harbaugh
"garage sale"
wow
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 4, 2012 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
All these rants about Manning?
Anyone want DeSean Jackson …. if he could stop the antics i still think he is a big time gamebreaker…. may get him for a west coast discount
No
We already have Jackson, but without his issues…
Attack this day with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. ~ Jack Harbaugh
i do think
sometimes guys look around and dont like the bed they made so with a second chance they’ll make sure not to make them…. I would love to know the Jackson we already have?… not saying i want him just thought some of you californians would have mentioned it
If you don’t know Kyle Williams is in the exact same mold as Jackson I’d have to question how closely you’ve been following the team.
Has all the potential to be that kind of player…with his head on straight.
Attack this day with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. ~ Jack Harbaugh
maybe on d jacksons good day when he trys and is not injured
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 5, 2012 4:24 AM PST up reply actions
Sort of agree
D Jacks has proven to be a more big play threat. KW has potential and has shown flashes but he’s had his key drops and has been hurt too. D Jacks has a higher ceiling too. I’m sure that we could agree that it’d be nice to have him AND KW next year
">" as in a "a bigger butt wipe"
Character actual does matter, and Kyle also got the tools. Kyle will do more in the NFL, I believe.
Kyle Williams?
Alex Smith 86%+ QB rating with 22+ TDs this season, hopefully! :)
NO......
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 4, 2012 4:19 PM PST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Niners Nation
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
- Adrian Peterson blows teammates away in footraces; appears to be on the mend
- UPDATE: Charlie Sheen didn’t buy Lawrence Taylor’s Super Bowl ring
- Alex Smith gets blown up by Jon Beason over Cam Newton comments
