49ers OT thriller: 49ers refuse to lose

by David Fucillo on Nov 26, 2007 10:44 AM PST in San Francisco 49ers News

Courtesy of wjackalope

A day later and obviously I'm still excited about the victory yesterday. The 49ers took control of the game early on and then did everything they could to give it back to the Cardinals. In the game thread, Nosetackle Supreme screamed out, "WE ARE MEANT TO WIN THIS GAME" and that seemed to be the case as overtime progressed. I'm not sure who else noticed this, but something struck about the two teams yesterday. On the one hand, the Cardinals seemed to get lucky on every play, whether it be the hail mary to end the first half, several missed calls or the pass to Bryant Johnson that set up the game-tying field goal in the fourth quarter. On the other hand, while the 49ers certainly lucked out on the missed OT field goal, the 49ers did not rely on luck the rest of the way. Frank Gore worked his ass off making plays. Trent Dilfer had no problem stepping up in the pocket and checking down to his running backs. Patrick Willis made the literal game-saving tackle. Donald Strickland made th phenomenal play to prevent Bryant Johnson from catching the game-ending TD. The list goes on, but the 49ers busted their asses in that game.

All this points to the reason I can still come back every week to watch this team. I made it the subject of my newest post at the Nothing Finer blog I do for FSN Bay Area: These 49ers don't give up. While they may stink up the joint at times, they battle all the way to the end. When a team is in the midst of an 8-game losing streak it is very hard to see this motivation because the losses create a bitterness. Winning allows us to see this team battling, as they've done every single week. It's easy to brush away a bad loss by saying they just don't care and are just collecting a paycheck. However, if they didn't care, the defense would not continue to bust its ass every single week. Bryant Young has made his millions and cemented his legacy. And yet he continues to bust his ass week in and week out and I think that is something that has trickled down through the rest of the team.

In fact, as much as Mike Nolan is criticized, this is one area that I think he deserves kudos. As bad as things have gotten, this team has not quit. Obviously insiders would have a better handle on the situation, but from the outside, it seems like the players are not giving up on the season.

So what does this mean going forward? Arizona is obviously not a great team in this league, but they're no slouches. Going into Sunday, the Cardinals were actually ranked 13th in Defensive DVOA and had plenty to fight for as they were just a game back of Seattle. So the 49ers beat a decent team. The 49ers could very well revert to prior offensive form next week against the Panthers, but I'd like to hope not. At 4-7, the Panthers were also a preseason playoff pick, but they've seen their season spiral to the point of deciding between David Carr, Vinny Testaverde and Matt Moore (of Oregon State fame, or lack thereof). If the 49ers can replicate yesterday's game plan, this becomes a very winnable game. If they don't, we could see another 13-9 stinker. I can honestly say I have NO idea how this game will turn out. I'm planning on exchanging five questions with our Panthers blogger, and I'm thinking he might say the same thing.

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Comments

Not giving up.

Not only has Nolan done a great job of motivating his team not to give up, he's done a great job of getting the players to buy into the overall "plan" as well. I've pointed it out a few times before, but I'll say it again: he does a VERY good job of keeping players from pointing fingers.

It would have been very easy for a defensive player to point his finger at the offense the past eight (or even 12) weeks and say to everyone "they are the reason we are losing." Instead, the defense strongly believes it is up to them to bring home the "W", not just the offense's. The defense scratches and claws every game, and yesterday's first quarter (and eventually the 4th and OT) was the culmination of that belief. The defense put the offense in position to score with minimal effort. The defense scored points themselves!

This defense is very exciting. They're young, but they have shown a lot of potential. Everyone looks forward to the development of guys like Patrick Willis, Manny Lawson, and Shawntae Spencer, but tend to overlook the "support" players. Guys like Ronald Fields, Isaac Sopoaga, Dashon Goldson, Ronald Strickland, and Parys Haralson should all also be reasons for optimism. These guys are cutting their teeth in this league, and they're doing it together. It'll be VERY interesting to see them continue to grow together (along with the "stars" of the defense).

by sfgfan on Nov 26, 2007 11:22 AM PST reply actions

Please, no "Rollin' With Nolan"

I am happy with the win, I am glad to see the players do well.

And I am glad that the players don't give up on Nolan.

But I have given up on Nolan. He is a lousy game-day coach, his offense has been historically the most inept Niner offense. His mishandling of Alex Smith is criminal. Etc., etc.

To me, the players' love for Nolan is about as useful as a guy on death row at San Quentin having "Mom" tattooed on his arm. It's nice to see the devotion, but it hasn't translated into many results.

by Bob In Pacifica on Nov 27, 2007 7:51 AM PST up reply actions

Yada-yada.

As I (and many others here) have pointed out, the offense is obviously not Nolan's forte. He needs someone to run it for him (much like Norv did last year). I (and many others) are willing to give (at least) him an offseason to find that person. He was screwed into picking Hostler, and you want to fry him for it. What better options do you have?

As for the Alex Smith thing, I've asked it before and I'll ask it again: why is he the only victim? Nolan (and team doctors) are at the mercy of Smith. If he's truly hurting, say it's more than just sore (which is what all the doctors and coaches have said it was). And then to let your agent get into the mix, when it's obviously a coach-player matter is ridiculous. I'm not saying Alex didn't deserve treatment on his shoulder (and forearm), but he (like Nolan) handled the situation very wrong.

I've about had it with your negativity. You make a point, and many of us here have placed counter points at your feet that you refuse to address or even acknowledge. Instead, you regurgitate the same thing you previously wrote and treat it as if it's some kind of counter-argument. If no argument I (or anyone else has made) to this point will convince you otherwise (or at least bring out more understanding on your part), then I'll just leave you as one of "group 2" in Howie's analogy. Oh wait, you've already jumped ship, so you're further out than group 2 is.

I'm not saying we all have to think alike, as that would make for very boring discussion. But at least help turn it into one, instead of pushing your points and ignoring others'.

by sfgfan on Nov 27, 2007 9:59 AM PST up reply actions

Why is Smith the only victim?

Victim of what? Saying that the quarterback is well when he isn't? Gee, could it be that Smith is the only quarterback on the squad with a dislocated shoulder that Nolan said is healthy? Hmm, let me think. Perhaps it's because he's the only quarterback that Nolan screwed this way? Just a thought.

Nolan said Smith was okay, and it was clear to the world that he wasn't. Was that because Nolan didn't know, couldn't see or because he was lying? Maybe you're right. Maybe Nolan is so stupid and so blind that he couldn't see Smith grabbing his shoulder. Maybe you're right. Maybe looking at a quarterback overthrowing his receiver and then grabbing his shoulder in pain is not Nolan's forte. It looks to me like he was lying. I don't see Nolan sacrificing Smith's shoulder for the team. He was sacrificing it for his own cover.

There is plenty of negativity here and in all of 49erland this year in case you haven't noticed, and with good reason. Even with the victory against the Cardinals, they're still only 3-8. I hold Nolan responsible for the lousy year. I think he's a good defensive coordinator and a lousy head coach.

Since Denise and I don't have any dinners scheduled I doubt that my opinions about Nolan, or Larry Allen for that matter (seems some folks are touchy about any criticism of him too), carry any more weight than the next fan.

The fact the Coach hasn't lost his team is wonderful. The fact that they keep losing games isn't.

+++

I don't watch the show with the women with suitcases full of money so that reference is lost on me.

+++

You shouldn't take anything someone says about the 49ers so personally. No need to attack others for differing viewpoints. Lowell Cohn wrote a column about Nolan with which I agree. I agreed with Anne Killion's column last week. Read Matt Barrows' 11/24 column. Or Barrows' 11/21 column. All of these columnists are expressing similar opinions of Nolan. Maybe we're all group two. Then again, maybe you shouldn't ignore them.

by Bob In Pacifica on Nov 27, 2007 1:38 PM PST up reply actions

Reference

I was referring to HowTheyScored's (Howie) analogy to 49ers fans and walking in the desert, not that briefcase show.

I've read every single article written by local 49ers beat writers. While I disagree with many writers (Killion, I almost never agree with and dislike a whole lot), I do read them. I'm not saying I ignore your points of view, because if I did, they wouldn't ruffle my feathers.

We just have very differing opinions, and negativity in light of positives bugs me. I'm guilty of that, for sure. I just really think Nolan is a good head coach. He was screwed this year by his offensive coordinator leaving, and I've been willing to give him that. How many coaches in the NFL could be asked to coach both sides of the ball? I'm pretty sure you can count them all on one hand.

As for the whole Smith situation, I'm not asking why Smith is the only victim that is a QB. I'm saying Nolan and the medical staff also fell as victims in this situation. The credibility of the medical staff is undoubtedly going to be questioned, as it is THEIR responsibility to report something wrong to the rest of the team officials. Alex after his first two games back was still saying he was "fine" and that he will continue to heal. It wasn't just Nolan saying it. Smith finally burst the bubble when he decided to take aim at the media instead of speaking further with team doctors, his position coach, his offensive coordinator, and his head coach. I'm not relieving Nolan of blame, I'm just saying Smith isn't as innocent as many (media and fans alike) are making him out to be. They all were guilty during this ordeal, not just Nolan.

by sfgfan on Nov 27, 2007 2:36 PM PST up reply actions

Who is Bob In Pacifica?

by methodrampage on Nov 27, 2007 4:00 PM PST up reply actions

I'm Bob In Pacifica

I'm in my late fifties, I'm retired, I've been a Niner fan since the late seventies, before the Walsh era. I live in Pacifica.

Gee, am I this disruptive? I'm a Niners fan. I don't think Nolan is a very good head coach. Head coaches are responsible for their coaching staffs. No? Do I suspect Nolan will be fired? Unless they lose the rest of their games I doubt it. And maybe he'll learn to hand all the offensive duties off to someone more competent than Hostler and the team might work their way out of this hole.

So how are the Niners going to attack the Panthers this weekend? They are one of my least favorite teams in the NFL. I hated when they first came into the league and beat the Niners fairly regularly. I hope that they can take them down.

by Bob In Pacifica on Nov 27, 2007 9:03 PM PST up reply actions

not to go unmentioned...

Good post...I just wanted to add to what you said at the end of your post about support players. I think Michael Lewis is a guy that the Niners were lucky to pickup. Also, J. Ulbrich is getting it done.

Hostler the Horrible

by jfainsf49 on Nov 27, 2007 11:19 AM PST up reply actions

Thoughts...

Yes, you do have to hand it to Nolan: his players DO NOT quit on him. On the other hand, he's given them a reason to in the first place, which isn't good.

Given that the Panthers have lost 5 straight and are really struggling, I'm definitely going to have to pick the 49ers to win next week. A few weeks ago I didn't think I'd say that again for the rest of the season. I think if Nolan wants to keep his job, it's crucial that this team wins at least 4 games.

One upside to not having our first round pick next season, at least as a fan, is that there's no reason to not want them to win as many games as possible, unlike in some recent seasons. Not that I didn't wish we had the pick, but I'm just saying...

by jaytierney on Nov 26, 2007 11:48 AM PST reply actions

2-minute drill

Was anyone else suprised at how poorly the Cardinals managed the last minute or so at the end of regulation? The play before the toss to the 1-yard line resulted in a long pass and the receiver was tackled in bounds. Rather than rushing to the line and spiking it, they got to the line and spent a good 8 seconds or so calling a play. That 8 seconds could easily have given them at least another shot at the end zone, if not 2 shots, rather than the one try that our DB knocked down. Thank goodness for the way they ran things, or today we're talking about another loss.

"If it looks like a rat and smells like a rat, by golly, it's a rat."

by UnleashTheGore on Nov 26, 2007 12:13 PM PST reply actions

A few things

Trent Dilfer - It was really hard watching this guy throw. Much like Alex Smith, Trent consistently overthrew guys. He handles a game well and we have no viable alternatives, so we have to deal with him. This definately has been the problem with the niners this year. From game one Alex hasn't had much accuracy (even before the injury). but it isn't totally his fault because....
Darrell Jackson. You are a wide reciever, the primary reason you are in the NFL is to catch a football. Yet you don't do that consistently. You dropped a TD that would have put us ahead of Atlanta and yesterday you dropped a catchable pass on third down on our opening drive. In fact you drop a lot of balls. Why is he starting for us? Why hasn't Alex and Trent lost all hopein him? Hell, throw it to a doublecovered Arnez Battle, if he can get his hand on it, he will probably catch it.

Despite those problems, yesterday was a fun game to watch. I was a little skeptic with the way the game started, but as was posted earlier, this team don't quit and besides a couple games, we have been in it right until the end. Our defense should be commended considering the amount of time they have been on the field. Patrick Willis is a beast. Despite Lerry Fitzgerald beating him on one play yesterday, Nate Clements has completely earned what we are paying him. I am beginning to love his "punch the ball out of a receiver's hand from behind" move we have seen twice now.

Whatever team showed up yesterday, please show up next week in Carolina

by PastGlory on Nov 26, 2007 2:27 PM PST reply actions

No!!

Guys, a W is not always just a W.

The Cards lost this game, we did not win it. I want to believe, I want to be excited... but it's just not what we're capable of. Two freak plays do not constitute a win. I know, they were playing their haerts out out there, and I'm glad the D finally got some fruits for all their hard work this season, but make no mistake: a snap a quarter of a second earlier, and we're 2 and 9.

by LA49er on Nov 26, 2007 2:55 PM PST reply actions

No mistake needed.

I made this analogy to some serious downer's over at McCoveyChronicles. It's not that we're celebrating because we deserved to win the game, or even necessarily because it gives us a light at the end of the tunnel. Think of it like you're in a desert. No car, no umbrella, no food, no sunscreen, no thing but sand as far as your eye can see. Also, imagine that this desert is the 49ers 2007 season.

I imagine that's an easy connection to make.

Now suddenly you come across an Oasis. You look left. You look right. You look straight ahead. You try not to look back because you know what's back there. You just came from back there. All you see is this one palm tree with a few coconuts and an ice cold spring at its base. Everywhere else, just dry, desolate, sunscorched sand. As far as you can see, in every direction. Every direction but back. because you're not looking back, right?

In this situation there's still no real reason hope. No reasn to think you're finally safe. That you won't die. Does that mean you don't drink the water, rest in the shade, have a coconut for breakfast, another for lunch, and a hearty dinner (of coconut)? Do you just look at the Oasis, think "but it's not like those coconuts will really fill me up, anyway, tat water probably isn't even ice cold like he said, and that shade is just a place where it's 110 instead of 120," drop your head, and walk on by?

Now imagine there's some of us with you. Split us into two groups. The one group eating, drinking, and reasting. The other group standing around telling them the situation is still crappy. Now imagine the water and the coconuts are consumed and everybody is on their way. Who dies first? That's right! Group 2.

And now there's more food for everyone else.

We're just stopping at an Oasis on the way to an uncertain future. We have no illusions about the nature of that future, but it'll at least keep us going a little longer. I guess the moral is join in or eventually get cannablized. That's kind of a crappy moral....

I really need to stop following this analogy all the way through to its end. Nobody wants to get eaten.

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down. Over and over. / My Blog, For Writers

by howtheyscored on Nov 26, 2007 3:16 PM PST up reply actions

Let's hope it doesn't come to that...

Yeah, that kind of fell apart at the end, but I totally agree with you. Look, you Debbie Downers... It doesn't matter if Kurt Warner soft tossed the ball to the 9er defenders all game. What matters is, the Niners won. I think we all get that one game does not a season make. But to go out there and say woe is us, they handed us a victory is pretty foolish at best.

Niners won. Enjoy. It might not happen again this year. I'm going to enjoy the good feelings for the rest of the week, in case reality sets back in this weekend.

I needed the Niners to be good to make up for the fact that the Giants just sucked!

by Drunken Miller on Nov 26, 2007 3:30 PM PST up reply actions

It was great

I am still feeling a little euphoric from the weekend.

I still want Nolan gone at the end of the year, and am not fooled that we have necessarily turned the corner, but I am happy with the win and am hopeful for a win next week.

Football is a complicated affair, and on a given Sunday, even down to a given play, so many things can go right or wrong depending on a player's thinking, his physical ability, etc., that the right play can fail, or the wrong play can succeed. Watching a game is endlessly fascinating, and there is nothing better than getting a victory at the end.

If anything, the game Sunday was even more rewarding because the team was so hopeless going into the game. The level of joy I felt actually reminded me of being a kid when the Mets first started in the early sixties. Since they were so awful those first few years, any time the team won I was filled with a happiness unequalled by jaundiced Yankee fans.

by Bob In Pacifica on Nov 27, 2007 8:03 AM PST up reply actions

On the subject of Nolan

I remember after those two (ugly) wins, Nolan was fielding questions about how ugly the wins were, and he kept saying we played well enough to win, and that that was good enough for him...

Guess what Mikey? It wasn't good enough. Not even close.

Someone else mentioned promoting him to GM, which I think is fantastic idea. Hell, I'd vote Nolan for President if it kept him away from the playbook.

by LA49er on Nov 27, 2007 8:24 AM PST up reply actions

Football is a strange and wonderful game

At times you can see only your own team's mistakes and not the other team's. Or see the other team's mistakes and not yours. But every game, every play is the sum of twenty-two athletes' mistakes, physical acts, intuitive guesses, etc. The Cardinals lost the game, and the Niners won it. At the end the Niners had more points. That's a "W."

Over the course of a season if you get more "W"s than "L"s then you're doing a good job. Less, then you're not.

Nolan makes some really bonehead gameday decisions. His extremely conservative philosophy seems to have poisoned the offensive side of the team and alienated his quarterback. He's put together a good defensive squad (and it would have been great if Lawson hadn't been lost), and they're playing much better than they're given credit for.

I don't think his forte is being anywhere near the offense, which precludes him being a head coach. Not ready to give him GM duties, though, unless he's only GM for selecting defensive players.

by Bob In Pacifica on Nov 27, 2007 2:09 PM PST up reply actions

Nice Analogy

But there's actually a sea of people we pass every weekend in this desert, who have maps to watering holes and camelbacks in case they don't make it.

Then there's us, and our celebrating over finding a canteen a certain team from Arizona dropped. Excuse me if I'm a little less than thrilled about a freak handout victory.

Although, at this point, maybe we can just follow teams and hope they drop something useful? Or better yet, maybe we can become the beggars of the league! Every game, we'll just ask the other team if they wouldn't mind taking a dive for us. It couldn't hurt to ask!

by LA49er on Nov 27, 2007 8:15 AM PST up reply actions

With all due respect

I think you're missing the point of the desert. The point of the desert is that it's the hopeless terrain. We're walking around here with Dolphins and Raiders fans. Those Colts fans you say have maps, they're not in the desert. They're in some hotel in the middle of a city somewhere waiting for room service and their $15 bottles of Evian. Those maps you think they're looking at, those are menus.

The whole point of the desert in the analogy is that it is the wasteland of the hopeless, not some terrain that everybody's walking through, some more prepared than others.

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down. Over and over. / My Blog, For Writers

by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2007 11:51 AM PST up reply actions

Better than they've played

I think the Niners' personnel is better than their record. The offensive personnel is mediocre, but that's .500. They haven't performed up to their level so far.

by Bob In Pacifica on Nov 27, 2007 9:06 PM PST up reply actions

I Agree

And that's sort of the point I've been making. We have talent, we have promise... but we have a record that doesn't show any of that. And the one game that we should have won handily came down to, I'll say it again, freak plays. I would say the same about Arizona if they had won with their freak end zone catch. It just comes down worse on our side, deservedly or not, because our win was more Arizona's doing than it was ours.

Maybe we played hard all game to keep it so close, or maybe we missed opportunities to take the lead. But the fact that we have a lot of talent not playing to their potential makes me believe the latter is more likely the case. So I'm sort of happy the Niners won, but it's a backhanded victory in a sense, because it reminds me that we can't win a game in our own right without help.

And that puts a serious damper on any victory celebrations I'd otherwise be in the middle of right now.

by LA49er on Nov 28, 2007 8:47 AM PST up reply actions

Arizona

They have a lot more talent on offense than the 49ers do. Their defense (especially the front seven) is a lot more seasoned than the 49ers' is. So I don't understand why so many fans (not just you, but many others) think this past game was a "gimme" game.

No other team has the WR group that they do. There may be some that come close, but no one technically matches it. They have an experienced QB who knows how to utilize his WRs (as the we all saw this past weekend).

Again, tell me what mistakes Arizona made that the 49ers DIDN'T AT ALL help influence? What makes an interception any cheaper just because the QB was the one that threw it? If I recall, the INTs that were thrown weren't missed throws or even bad reads. The CB took a very aggressive line AND position for the ball. Similarly, the fumble in the endzone was a result of a defensive pick at the line by Derek Smith on the TE that forced Boldin out of the play.

by sfgfan on Nov 28, 2007 8:55 AM PST up reply actions

OK

so Arizona has more experienced players. But their record and their recent play makes them a very beatable team. So fine, examining them in a vacuum, it wasn't a gimme game.

It doesn't change the fact that we couldn't win without a misfortune on their end.

Again, I didn't watch the game so I'll not argue about the Niners' play, but if they really played better this week, then we're in really bad shape with respect to our talent. My only hope through all this was that we have the talent, we just need to find a way to unlock it.

Your argument insinuates we don't even have the talent. And that is more discouraging than winning by accident.

by LA49er on Nov 28, 2007 9:12 AM PST up reply actions

Where.... and why?

Where in the world did I "insinuate" the 49ers have no talent? I said the Cardinals have a lot more talent on offense, which is undeniable. I said they have a more seasoned defense, which is undeniable. I never said the 49ers flat out suck. You're taking your assumption (again) that the Cardinals suck, and making my words sound like I say the 49ers suck. Well, that is not what I said.

Next, why are you even arguing if you didn't watch the game? What are you going off of then, statistics? News writers who have their own agendas (yes, almost every writer has their own agenda)? How can you say Arizona made "mistakes" if you didn't even watch to see if the 49ers "created" those things themselves?

You're saying you don't want to comment on the 49ers performance, but then you're going to say Arizona had "misfortune" and "mistakes." By saying Arizona "helped" the 49ers, you ARE commenting on the 49ers performance. You are basically saying they didn't do a whole lot to help themselves win, and that is completely false.

by sfgfan on Nov 28, 2007 9:22 AM PST up reply actions

You essentially

said the Niners played a good game on Sunday, to which I'd say means we're not good enough to play with the Cardinals, which again in a vacuum are a great team, but they haven't been able to compete in this league all that well either.

So do we "suck"? I don't know. Maybe. Hell, I'd even say probably. Do we suck compared to the rest of the league? That is undeniable. Especially if we played a good game for us and we still needed a late snap to win. It's not like they needed the FG to tie, we were tied and needed overtime to win. Against a team that isn't even a great team in this league.

That, or the offense played a game where we didn't capitalize on all the opportunities the defense created. Again, did they play as hard as they could be expected to and still needed luck to win, or did they still miss opportunities (albeit with a better performance) and get lucky to win? Which is it? I'm asking because I don't know, I couldn't watch the game.

And I know the Niners didn't play like they should have, because I've seen their other games and know that the talent level is there, but they just don't play to their level, especially (or specifically) on offense.

I am basing all this on the fact that ESPN showed me a late snap on a game winning good field goal that got called back and missed on the second attempt. I'd be excited if that was against the Saints, or the division leading Seahawks... but against the Cardinals, combined with the fact that we haven't convincingly won a game all season, leaves me more discouraged than happy.

In fact, I'm not even really arguing. You can be happy, but I'm not about this. I don't want to bring you down, but when people are proclaiming this to be the team that can beat the panthers... I'm trying to stay on an even keel, so I'm not crushed when they lose the same way for the same reasons again.

by LA49er on Nov 28, 2007 9:58 AM PST up reply actions

Arizona

Their record says very little about what they're capable of. If anything, their record is a manifestation of their inconsistency (something the 49ers struggle heavily with in addition to just overall execution). They can beat teams like the Steelers, Lions and Bengals, but then they stumble against the Rams and the Panthers. They aren't a terrible team, they just lack consistency.

You'd be excited if it were against the Seahawks, but not the Cards. Right. The Cards, going into the weekend, were one game behind the 'Hawks. The 'Hawks have been JUST AS INCONSISTENT as the Cards. What makes them any better? Oh, right, because ESPN says they're this shiny "DIVISION LEADER." Please.

No one is saying this team has turned the corner. Everyone here has basically said "enjoy this win for what it is." It's a win. Be happy. Can they beat the Panthers? Yes they can. Will they? I'm sure not a single 49ers fan on this site will tell you they definitely will, as that's naive and stupid. But the majority of us here believe the 49ers have a chance, and after what they showed this past Sunday, that chance is definitely well-warranted.

The late snap was a mistake, sure. But it's not like the second field goal was much more difficult. Thirty-two yarders should be made 90% of the time (if not more). Rod Brooks on the radio pointed out that on the first attempt, Donald Strickland (I think it was) was coming hard from the kicker's right. Is it coincidence that the second kick, Strickland was coming hard again and the kicker pulled the ball left? We'll never know, but is it possible Strickland influenced the pull? Yes, it is definitely possible.

Again, no one here is really crushed anymore when the 49ers lose. As a matter of fact, it's almost expected. But what's wrong with celebrating a win for what it's worth when they finally do win? There are only 16 games in a season (if you don't make playoffs). That only provides 16 chances of having the reason to cheer before a long offseason of "ifs," and "buts." I don't know about you, but everyone win is fun, regardless how far and few they are in between.

by sfgfan on Nov 28, 2007 10:39 AM PST up reply actions

Replying to above, trying to save space

Regardless, they are the division leaders. That doesn't change just because they're a better team on paper. That's the only reason why this type of win would be better in my eyes.

I like the point you make about influencing the pull. I'll have to think about that, but it could make me feel better about the ugly win if we at least had some hand in the missed kick, if not in the late snap.

As a matter of fact, to put it in perpective, I think the fad of "freezing the kicker" with a timeout this season is deplorable and just plain unsportsmanlike. But I would at least admit we forced a bad attempt if Nolan had called the timeout instead of the late snap.

by LA49er on Nov 28, 2007 11:50 AM PST up reply actions

Hell no...

with all due respect. The Niners have been getting shafted all year. I mean, the refs have really blown some calls that could have swung games in a different direction. For example, the V. Davis catch in Pitt and 3 times we have been penalized for running into the kicker. At the same time in the Dallas-Buffalo game a kicker is ran into by a player and there is no freakin call there, wtf. The Niners are getting what's owed.

You said two freak plays, wouldn't you consider that hail mary a freak play.

Hostler the Horrible

by jfainsf49 on Nov 27, 2007 8:57 AM PST up reply actions

What's your point?

We could just as easily be 0-11. However, I for one do not hold our record as the end-all-be-all basis of my fan-hood.

Win or lose the game was not as painful to watch as 9 others were.

Two freak plays don't constitute a win. I guess Seattle didn't really win their game, neither did Chicago, or New England for that matter. Arizona's Hail Mary was a freak play which would have constituted a win barring our freak plays. So yes, freak plays, however numerous, do constitute a win.

by methodrampage on Nov 27, 2007 4:08 PM PST up reply actions

Re. Whats your point

I was responding to LA49er's post titled "No!!"

My point is that a win counts no matter what. It doesn't matter if its pretty, ugly, by 1 or by 35.

Hostler the Horrible

by jfainsf49 on Nov 28, 2007 6:49 AM PST up reply actions

RE: What's your point

Dude check out the flowage of the replies. My comment was in response to LA49er's comment not yours as we have the same point.

by methodrampage on Nov 28, 2007 8:40 AM PST up reply actions

Sorry

for all the confusion guys.

But I elaborated more above on this point, agreeing with Bob in pacifica.

I would just say that the teams you mentioned all have better records, and have won games without "help" all season. This is the first win we've had in 9 games, not having won the first two very convincingly at all, so if they didn't win undeservedly, then they at least deserve the accusation.

And I'm accusing them of not winning, but of being lucky enough to be there while Arizona lost.

by LA49er on Nov 28, 2007 8:53 AM PST up reply actions

My bad..

Hostler the Horrible

by jfainsf49 on Nov 28, 2007 10:12 AM PST up reply actions

Wrong We won it

You can say all you want about how Arizona blew it and this and that but there were moments where Arizona got extremely lucky. That hail mary at the end of te half!! And what about the fake punt TD getting called back. We could have won this game 38-24. But it does not matter. We outplayed the cardinals. Frank played great, dilfer made some good plays, and though the d had some trouble we were able to cause turnovers and help out a struggling offence. Now lets see if we can do it again. GO NINERS!!!!!

by montasmob69 on Nov 26, 2007 4:41 PM PST reply actions

Dude.

They out gained us by almost 200 yards. They lost 2 fumbles (one which ended the game) and Warner threw 2 picks.

The only area (other than turnovers) that we beat them in was the Punting (and punt return) game.

That is not outplaying someone, that is getting lucky.

But when you are the worst team in the league, every win is getting lucky!

by zenbitz on Nov 27, 2007 9:03 AM PST up reply actions

Not necessarily.

See, this is where everyone's "assumptions" about what wins a football game are false. This is where everyone thinks that teams play and it's the offenses who can turn on or off the results. Instead of looking at the Cardinals giving up four turnovers, why not say the 49ers defense forced two turnovers?

Giving up yards means very little in the NFL if it doesn't translate to points and the eventual win. You can give up all the yards in the world, but if you could turn the ball around for your offense to take it the other way, that's all that really matters.

Of course if you take away the turnovers, the 49ers would have lost. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that the turnovers are a part of the game, and it's nonsensical to discount them as "Cardinal mistakes" rather than "49ers performance." There has to be a balance of the two in there somewhere. The Warner fumble to end the game was a result of Derek Smith bumping the tight end into Anquan Boldin, who (I think) was supposed to be the primary target, which resulted in Warner holding the ball a little longer.

by sfgfan on Nov 27, 2007 9:53 AM PST up reply actions

Agree completely!

It seems crazy to complain that they didn't play well enough to win... When the Niners won.

Obviously that probably won't hold true every week, but it doesn't need to. It just needed to hold true today. Besides, the defense has not been considered the problem, it's been the offense that's been the problem. And they finally played up to the task at hand. I think that's a positive!

I needed the Niners to be good to make up for the fact that the Giants just sucked!

by Drunken Miller on Nov 27, 2007 10:17 AM PST up reply actions

It's not crazy

If you watched the Chargers - Colts game.

The Chargers weren't celebrating at all, like you would expect a major upset team celebrating. They knew they didn't deserve to win, they knew Indy lost that one and that it was squarely a loss on their own shoulders.

That's where I am this week with these Niners, and while I'd never give the W back, I certainly wouldn't go bragging about it.

Besides, that's what Nolan was saying for the first two games, "We played well enough to win, so we're doing something right..."

This is what good enough gets you, 3 and 8. How about, let's play to the best of our ability? If that isn't good enough to win, then at least we left it all out there on the field.

That's where I see the Dolphins from last night. They put up a hell of an effort, and I am taking nothing away from those guys for that loss. It just happens to be their 11th, but I give those guys a lot of credit. Us?

"So, let me get this straight. You play a whole game, you get a whole snowcone, play a half game, get a whole snowcone? Well I'd rather play half a game."

by LA49er on Nov 27, 2007 10:33 AM PST up reply actions

Nolan.

What's the difference in saying "We played well enough to win" and "playing to the best of our ability"? One says "there is room for improvement," and the other says "we're playing at our peak." Which message would you want your coach to portray to you?

The 49ers have yet to play to the best of their abilities. The offensive line has slacked quite a bit. The QBs have been pretty bad. The WRs have been horrible. They have not played to the best of their abilities, and Nolan knows this. He says "We played well enough to win," in praise AND criticism of the team. He expects more, and the players all know that.

by sfgfan on Nov 27, 2007 10:40 AM PST up reply actions

You should never be able to say,

"We played to the best of our ability." You should always feel you have more to give.

Play hard, play to win. That's all we can ask. But at the end of the day, if you won... You won. The final stats might not look good, but they still won, and have worsened the Patriots position in the first round of the '08 draft slightly.

I'll take it.

I needed the Niners to be good to make up for the fact that the Giants just sucked!

by Drunken Miller on Nov 27, 2007 11:24 AM PST up reply actions

Yeah You Should

I mean, maybe it's not what I want to hear from a player, but if it's true then it's true.

Again, look at the Dolphins last night, they don't have to say it, everyone can see they did everything they could and they worked hard and left it all on the field. Sometimes, your personal best just isn't good enough, and that's where the system you play in has to able to overcome some of those shortcomings.

Be it preparation, coaching, conditioning, playcalling, whatever, when the two are operating efficiently together, the sparks fly. Right now, our system has some serious issues, but our players aren't playing well enough to overcome them.

Our system isn't going to change this season, but our players can come out and give it 100%. I think our defense is actually giving it all they can, and it shows. But when our offense is consistently missing routes, dropping / under/overthrowing passes, and missing blocks, that tells me these guys aren't playing with heart. One guy you can see get frustrated is Gore week in and week out, but if his guys can't open up those holes, he's not going to have anywhere to run. Which is why I think the coaching situation is to blame, but it still doesn't explain our record. Our guys playing as hard as possible should have at least 3-4 more wins under their belts, not to mention a healthy QB and a sunnier outlook this season.

by LA49er on Nov 27, 2007 11:49 AM PST up reply actions

But

Didn't our guys play hard this week on offense? Didn't they lay it all out on the field? Don't they deserve the win for that, based on what you're saying? The offensive line was fantastic. The QB play was better than league average. Except for one third down drop, the receivers had it locked down. Gore was on fire.

The defense actually wasn't so good, but they still got the turnovers and the key tackles.

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down. Over and over. / My Blog, For Writers

by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2007 11:55 AM PST up reply actions

I couldn't

watch this week's game because we suck and baby Jesus cries when the NFL televises teams that suck nationally .

So, I'll take your word for it that the offense actually stepped up this week. So, assuming they showed signs of life, and some of the recap I watched showed it, that's great news.

But again I ask you, did they play as well as they could have? Because the players and the potential I see on this team, this game should have been a blowout, a victory lap to celebrate a winning season.

But it came down to a snap a half-second late, and our defense to make the game winning save. I don't think this is coincidence.

Then again, the Cards (as has been pointed out) got lucky a couple times too, so fine, let's break out the bubbly and party.

But party hard enough that you miss next week's game, and forget the last 8.

by LA49er on Nov 27, 2007 12:53 PM PST up reply actions

Re. I couldn't

And on the 8th day God said "And let there be Sunday Ticket."

I have seen just about every play this year. And I saw every play last game. What I have learned from this is that as a Niner fan don't celebrate too early. That is to say, after a big play, wait before you celebrate, check to see that there are no flags(holding on the Disease), then wait some more. Because eventually we will have a breakdown--dropped passes, missed assignments, overthrows, etc., every team has them.

I guess my point after all this blathering is that the offense made few or at least, less than the normal amount of mistakes. And the defense while giving up a gazillion yards is what won us that game. Hell, I think at one point we had created 3 turnovers but we were only up by three points. The offense improved but there is still a ways to go. However, they have given me a reason to be optimistic.

Hostler the Horrible

by jfainsf49 on Nov 27, 2007 1:52 PM PST up reply actions

VD penalties

He's more of a false start kind of guy...holding happens, but not NEARLY as often as false starts.

Niners Nation - The premier 49ers blog on the Internet!

by David Fucillo on Nov 27, 2007 1:58 PM PST up reply actions

True...

is that. I should have been more specific...rats.
In all seriousness, though, VD is a freak and I look for him to do some great things. He might not erase any memories of D. Clark or B. Jones any time soon, but here is to hoping that he does.

I think most of us have seen him in action. I mean, he simply refuses to go down(maybe not always a good thing). I like his run you over attitude. But the guy has got to become a student of the game. Again, I hope he does.

Hostler the Horrible

by jfainsf49 on Nov 27, 2007 2:11 PM PST up reply actions

Great news

The good news there is that he IS a very willing and able student. When he was drafted, everyone knew he would be a freak with the ball in his hands, but no one knew how he would be in blocking. He has taken that to heart and is probably one of the 49ers better blockers.

He is willing to learn and has shown he CAN learn. He has also finally understood that you have to grow up fast in the NFL, which he has. You don't see him trying to do off-the-wall celebrations, and he even tries to calm his teammates down now. That is all you can really ask of a kid in his second year. He gives a lot of hope for the years to come.

by sfgfan on Nov 27, 2007 2:25 PM PST up reply actions

Re. Great news

It may have been a preseason game, they were talking about Davis, and how he was having a suit made out of fancy chocolate wrappers. I thought here we go again, another T.O., or worse Chad Johnson. I even predicted that he would be penalized for celebrating a TD during the season, so far I have been wrong. But you are right, he seems to have toned it down and let his play do the talking.

Hostler the Horrible

by jfainsf49 on Nov 27, 2007 2:41 PM PST up reply actions

Can this...

column get any slimmer:)

Hostler the Horrible

by jfainsf49 on Nov 27, 2007 2:42 PM PST up reply actions

It could...

... if we keep commenting on this!

by sfgfan on Nov 27, 2007 2:47 PM PST up reply actions

8th Day

I thought God said "Let there be Sports Bars."

by methodrampage on Nov 27, 2007 4:20 PM PST up reply actions

I don't know what you're arguing then...

Look, this past Sunday, it was the offense that looked good and played up to par. The defense looked kind of bad giving up the yardage, but they got the turnovers when they mattered. So what are you arguing? We shouldn't be happy the team won because the offense stinks? The offense scored touchdowns, and more importantly, they scored points off of turnovers! So are you saying the defense stinks? They've been a bright spot all season for a miserable team, so there's no reason to despair that they are now suddenly terrible.

Look, I don't take more away from this game offensively than that the Niners offense finally broke out for one game. BUT, they've played bad defenses this season and looked terrible, so maybe - and I stress MAYBE - they've started to figure out a better play calling scheme. I don't trust that either, but it's a possibility. And having already gathered eight losses, the playoffs are pretty much a longshot, so I'm just hoping they'll win games. So when they DO win games, like they did on Sunday, I'm happy.

Also, your talk of partying seems a little out of place. It's not a party, it's just happy to have finally seen a win. I hope that's okay.

I needed the Niners to be good to make up for the fact that the Giants just sucked!

by Drunken Miller on Nov 27, 2007 5:08 PM PST up reply actions

Re. I don't know what you're arguing then...

The bad thing is I don't either. There is no argument.

Hostler the Horrible

by jfainsf49 on Nov 28, 2007 6:54 AM PST up reply actions

Lol, the Dolphins?

You're going to use the Dolphins as part of your arguement? The field, or lack there of, combined with the weather conditions had more to do with the Steelers only scoring 3 points than the Dolphins did.

by methodrampage on Nov 27, 2007 4:12 PM PST up reply actions

When

you're 11-0, you have to play hard in rain, sleet, hail and snow.

I came away with better impressions of the dolphins than the steelers. One is a team on the up-and-up, headed towards membership in the "afc elite", and the other faces making history with a winless season. And the winless team really put their hearts into that loss, and at the end of the day, it's all you can ask of guys especially in those conditions.

You can't blame the field if you get close to scoring position and can't convert on third down at the end of your drive. You can blame the field for the weird punts, the miffed field goal, and I'd even throw in some dropped passes... But not going 3 and out on a sack or lost yardage run play. That's a defense doing something right, and those Dolphins were trying like hell.

by LA49er on Nov 28, 2007 8:32 AM PST up reply actions

They still lost

So you're giving props to the Dolphins because some terrible field conditions helped shut down the Steelers even though they lost because they gave it their all but you won't give the Niners any credit for walking away from Sunday with a win because, as you put it, they won on freak plays? Did the Niners not give it their all on Sunday? It looked like they did to me.

There's no point in being negative for the sole sake of being negative.

by methodrampage on Nov 28, 2007 8:45 AM PST up reply actions

It's kind of obvious

It's really obvious that that kind of weather favors a defense greatly. Even the weakest defenses can defend on that kind of field. The offense is the side that initiates ball exchange, cuts, directional changes, etc. The offense is the side that depends on the field conditions the most.

If you're willing to throw in dropped passes, then of course failing to convert on third down should somewhat be given as well. A good team doesn't convert a lot of their third downs. Throw in rainy weather where the ball is soaked (it's not like baseball where a pitcher can keep the ball dry in his glove, which even then is somewhat ineffective), and you're going to fail way more third downs than you normally would.

Besides, are you saying the Steelers didn't put their all into it? I'm pretty sure they can't afford to lose either.

by sfgfan on Nov 28, 2007 8:45 AM PST up reply actions

What I forgot

to add is that it's alot easier to give up in those conditions than play like it's a championship game.

My point about third down conversions is that if you watched the game, you can see that they had an actual drive, converting third downs all the way down the field, and then got stopped on one or two plays (obviously) at the end of the drive. If it was just a bunch of three and outs on both sides, then I could say it was the field and it was hopeless. For being Steeler Nation, at home, they should have scored a touchdown. For being the winless Dolphins, they should have let them score a touchdown at home.

Neither happened, and I don't think you can blame the field/conditions for it. Remember that Miami had a similar opportunity to score and (maybe) win or tie, but went for it on fourth as the play was called back on a penalty.

by LA49er on Nov 28, 2007 9:05 AM PST up reply actions

There's the problem.

You're assuming conditions are the same on the field throughout the field, but that isn't the case. Any player (not even NFL or college, high school players) will tell you the field is different in different parts of it. Not to mention, in those kind of conditions, and leaky tarps, the field could have been A LOT worse in some areas.

They were practically playing in a puddle! There is little to no traction in most spots. The football didn't even bounce in some places!

by sfgfan on Nov 28, 2007 9:26 AM PST up reply actions

Dude...

If you didn't even watch any of the game, then you pretty much have no ground to back your arguments here... Honestly, you have NONE. Zero, ziltch, zipola. Why are you trying to argue that the Niners didn't play their hearts out if you didn't see whether or not they did? I don't get it.

I needed the Niners to be good to make up for the fact that the Giants just sucked!

by Drunken Miller on Nov 28, 2007 9:44 AM PST up reply actions

I

never said that. I only brought up the Dolphins because of the comment that you only have to be good enough to win. I would say the Niners were good enough to win at the beginning of the season, and we all remember those close call victories, and 3-8 is where "good enough" gets you. I can't comment as to whether the Niners played with more heart on sunday, you're right. But I know the they haven't been. So if they played with more heart, and I really think they did, then it just underscores how bad we are this season that we couldn't win outright even when we're firing on all cylinders and playing our hearts out.

Are you saying we somehow willed or deserved the freak FG at the end of the regular time game?

To re-re-cap: I'm simply arguing that we can take a lot of good things from this game, but victory in my opinion isn't one of them. We deserved to win the first two games more than we did this last one, and I think it sucks that my favorite team needs a late snap to win any game, forget about a game against a pretty mediocre opponent.

by LA49er on Nov 28, 2007 10:08 AM PST up reply actions

Deserved

The team deserved this win less than the first two? Let's recap. The QB had almost 100 QB rating, two TDs, 260 yards, and NO interceptions. Easily the best QB performance of the year. The RB had over 200 all-purpose yards, more than half of which were on 21 carries for over 5 YPC with two TDs. Easily the best RB performance of the year. The defense forced four turnovers, scored a TD, and recorded four sacks. The team's turnover differential was +4. How could anyone say they deserved to win this game less than the earlier two wins?

by sfgfan on Nov 28, 2007 10:44 AM PST up reply actions

My Take

Is that we're better than even those stats.

And I can say we deserved this win less because it hinged on a missed field goal our team didn't have any part in.

The game was Arizona's to lose. I don't know how to explain my point of view any more clearly. As a matter of fact, we've "won" two games this season holding our collective breath praying their kicker misses. This win proves just as effectively as a loss that we don't have what it takes to be a good team in the nfl this season. I personally believe we have it but aren't using it (or using it effectively), but the proof is right there.

We're a good enough team to tie. Woo hoo.

by LA49er on Nov 28, 2007 11:45 AM PST up reply actions

As I pointed out above... somewhere

No one is saying this team is "good" now. No one is even saying this team may have turned the corner (as evident in Fooch's main page post). Anyone positive about the win was just that: positive about the win. Enjoying it why it lasts, so to speak. Is it justifiable that that win could roll over into this week? There are quite a few reasons to believe that it can.

I'm not going to go through a whole list of things, but there is one thing that will stand out in ANYONE's list: if the offensive line can duplicate what it did last week, the 49ers have a very good chance of winning again. That is the primary linchpin or better yet, keystone, that will influence a 49ers victory. Everything else leans on that, at least for this week.

by sfgfan on Nov 28, 2007 12:02 PM PST up reply actions

Fair Enough

I agree, nothing wrong with enjoying the win. In fact, I'm picking them over the panthers (with a LOT of trepidation).

Considering my Cards pick last week was the one that kept me from taking the pot, I've learned to just lose with the Niners instead of trying to outguess them. I felt dirty picking the Cards and now I feel guilty for the Niners having to win a game to prove my disloyalty.

by LA49er on Nov 28, 2007 1:43 PM PST up reply actions

Ummm...

Why are we even debating postgame media rhetoric? It means nothing to anybody, and the least to the people saying it. That's the whole function of rhetoric to begin with, to put up a front.

As the Chargers go, it's easy to be less enthusiastic about a win when you're in first place. Do you really think if the Dolphins fell facefirst into a win right now, they wouldn't want to have a parade?

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down. Over and over. / My Blog, For Writers

by howtheyscored on Nov 27, 2007 11:48 AM PST up reply actions