Young vs. Smith

by UnleashTheGore on Nov 15, 2007 9:16 AM PST Comment 29 comments

[EDITOR'S NOTE - 11:15AM] - As indicated in this diary, Alex Smith and Steve Young were in vastly different situations from how they were acquired to the talent in place around them, to the coaches in place. Nonetheless I think this is an interesting discussion to consider. It's Alex Smith thread #517, but this is an interesting take on it, particularly in light of Young's appearance on MNF and his incredulity about the ineptness of the 49ers. So feel free to throw out your thoughts.

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This morning I was relaxing before work and watching a recap of the 1988 Niners on NFL Network, enjoying watching them when they were good.

I really knew nothing about this particular team other than they won a Super Bowl with an amazing last-minute drive down the field. I was suprised to see the quarterback controversy between Montana and Young that year. Young was pretty cocky and obviously upset that he wasn't being considered the starter yet.

What really suprised me was how poorly Young looked that season (other than the amazing TD run against the Vikings, of course). He overthrew balls, was fidgety in the pocket, and overall just looked like a very poor QB. Now, it could have just been a small sample of the clips that they showed (maybe he played well overall, I don't know seeing as I was a child at the time), but he reminded me of our current QB quite a bit.

Sure, their situations are quite different. Smith was a #1 overall pick, is getting paid a load of money, and isn't playing behind the greatest QB to ever play the game, but it seems to me that maybe their situations are more similar than we think? They both were a couple years into the league, played pretty badly, and got the fans pretty pissed off about how they were playing.

Could those of you who are a bit older and can remember well those years shed a bit more light on this? Do you think we just need to give Smith more time? I mean, the group around him isn't close to the talent Young had with those guys (Craig, Rice, Taylor, etc.), and he's still only what, 22 or 23? Can we maybe give him the benefit of the doubt for a few more years and let him grow a little? Or is Smith doomed because of the system & situation he's been put into? Am I missing something here? Can I break the record for most consecutive questions asked in a row?

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Niners Nation's writers or editors.

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Very good questions.

I don't remember the transition very much, but I do remember Young struggling a bit when he first became the starter. Many fans (and the media) questioned whether or not he could take the 49ers where Montana took them previously.

He didn't have trouble scoring (like Alex does now), but he did have a problem making poor decisions that result in interceptions. Now the fact he didn't have as much trouble scoring is probably a result of the combination of system and weapons. There is no denying he was in one of the best quarterbacking situations of all time. Offensively, they had weapons everywhere, as you point out, and they had coaches that knew how to use those weapons.

As for his problems in decision making and throwing INTs. They actually weren't as bad as many made it out to be. He just made some mistakes at inopportune times, and thats why people remembered it. That, and that fans expected perfection more than anything back then.

Young was a very intelligent QB, not different from Alex. Coming to the 49ers, he lacked proper mechanics but had a tremendous support staff in getting him up to snuff. Alex right now doesn't have that kind of support. Alex's "Joe" is a guy who still makes mental mistakes and mechanical mistakes (extra steps in his drop, bad reads, etc). Alex's coaching support is no where near what Walsh had for Young, Montana, etc. in those days.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If the 49ers hope to make anything of Smith, they need to find him a tutor. Not a peer tutor, but a real tutor. They had that in Norv, but he couldn't stay long enough to truly help Alex. Nolan, while being a very good people person, and a VERY good defensive coach, is not offensive-minded in the least bit. He needs an offensive coordinator who can take the reins and earn Nolan's full trust (much like Norv did).

Up until now, I'm still defending Nolan (because I believe he can do it). I still defend Smith (because I believe he can do it). However, if Nolan decides he's going to stick with Hostler after this offseason, then I'd start making my way to the other side. Right now, though, I think Nolan and Smith both could use another year to show the world they can do it, as I STILL believe they can.

by sfgfan on Nov 15, 2007 9:51 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Young had several problems - a few more points

he was left-handed and the system was designed for a right-hander. That's partly why Bono did so well in the system, while Young struggled with it. It sounds silly, but they never fully made the adjustments on that until 1992 when Young won the MVP
Young didn't get regular playing time until 1991, when he struggle early on and the 49ers missed the playoffs.
Young didn't always go through all of his reads. If the first guy was covered, he'd take off running It frustrated the receivers to no end, as they were open a bunch, but ended up blocking for Young. Once he got more patient, or used his scrambling ability to wait for guys to get open, he became an all-pro. Smith has happy feet, but he doesn't scramble as much as he should.

Lott's Prayer: Almost as many words as the Lord's Prayer, but the Lord wouldn't recognize any of them.

by Nosetackle Supreme on Nov 15, 2007 11:31 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

On the front page?

I am honored.

As interesting as this topic may or may not be, it pains me to think of Steve Young. Why? The lasting image I have is his body in a crumpled heap on that last game vs. the Cards. I just remember as a kid trying to will him to get up, thinking this could be the end. And it sure was.

I can come up with other good images, such as him hugging the Lombardi trophy and the amazing throw in the Packers game, but that image of him on the ground will last with me forever.

"If it looks like a rat and smells like a rat, by golly, it's a rat."

by UnleashTheGore on Nov 15, 2007 12:54 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Aeneas Williams

I've hated that guy ever since he gave Young that concussion. It's sad that I still hold such a grudge against him. Every time I saw him on TV, I just wished to see him suffer a career ending injury that would linger and give him pain the rest of his life. Thinking about him now, I'm still filled with anger.

The worst part is, it was probably a clean hit, and I don't recall if he taunted or anything. But he ended Steve Young's career. So I really hate him.

I needed the Niners to be good to make up for the fact that the Giants just sucked!

by Drunken Miller on Nov 15, 2007 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

The Hit

Actually, if memory serves me correctly there was a flag on the play for roughing the passer and it was not a clean hit. I had the same reaction for a LONG time, especially because in 1998 I felt the 49ers had a very good chance of going all the way.

by jaytierney on Nov 15, 2007 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

your memory is correct

Not only was there a flag, but there was a fine for helmet-to-helmet contact in a year that was mired with QB injuries.

That year, btw, was 1999, not 1998 - '98 was my favorite niners team of all time. A year in which they set all kinds of offensive franchise records (Young + Rice + Owens + Stokes + Hearst) but were largely overlooked for 2 reasons: #1 The '98 vikings could have gone 16-0 that year, and the offense THEY had was even better. #2 the niners, despite a 13-3 record, finished second in their division to the dirty-bird-dancing Atlanta Falcons...who stunk it up in the super bowl that year.

by shleckothegecko on Nov 15, 2007 5:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Speakin of images...

How about the one of Steve Young having the "monkey" taken off his back. I think it was Gary Plummer who actually took the "monkey" off Young's back.

Obviously, Young played in the shadow of one of the greatest QBs ever. I imagine Smith is feeling just as much if not more pressure to win.

jfainsf49

by jfainsf49 on Nov 15, 2007 1:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

The thing is...

Everyone has been saying too bad Steve Young can't come in and be a tutor to Smith, and it's a valid point considering that it would be a particularly good match. The more college highlights you watch, the more apparent it is that Smith is actually quite a good scrambler and could learn a lot from Young in that regard (I agree that Smith does not scramble nearly as much as he should).

by jaytierney on Nov 15, 2007 1:44 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Young

Young loves his private life. If you notice, he really only works on Sunday night and Monday night. Being truly devoted to his religion and family, football takes a back seat to it.

There is also the idea that good players don't necessarily make great coaches. What's even more interesting is that most of the great coaches in NFL history haven't had lavish playing careers.

by sfgfan on Nov 15, 2007 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

OH!

I thought the comparison was Alex Smith on the 06-07 Niners and Steve Young on the Buccaneers...

by zenbitz on Nov 15, 2007 4:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Are you kidding me????

Are you seriously even comparing Steve Young and Alex Smith?!?!! Seriously?!?!!?

Wow. I am speechless. Seriously. This is one of those arguments that I don't want to lend strength to by participating.

I refuse to drink the kool-aid on this one.

by Call It The Throw on Nov 15, 2007 4:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

He's not saying that.

No where did he say Alex Smith would be a HOF quarterback. He basically asked if it were okay to consider Young's early struggles and subsequent turnaround as a reason for hope that Alex isn't a BUST. I, for one, think it could be.

"Isn't a bust" and "Steve Young" are two totally different things.

by sfgfan on Nov 15, 2007 5:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Its still ridiculous

Smith has shown nothing positive since entering the NFL. Young struggled at times, but serious football minds knew that he had talent.

I know we are grasping at straws at this point, and I would love to grasp along with the rest of you, but I honestly consider this to be more akin to insulting Young (even at his worst!) than building up hope for Smith. The day that Smith shows potential for ANYTHING coming even close to where we drafted him and what we paid for him, maybe, just maybe, we can reopen the discussion. Until then....give me a break.

Alex Smith is no Steve Bono, let alone a Steve Young.

by Call It The Throw on Nov 15, 2007 8:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree with your first statement.

Smith has shown plenty of positives since entering the NFL, not least of all his ability to avoid costly interceptions even while playing hurt.

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down. Over and over. / My Blog, For Writers

by howtheyscored on Nov 15, 2007 8:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Okay, fair enough

But answer the following, honestly: Has he shown you anything that puts him in a class above solid back-up quarterback? I say absolutely not.

Having the ability to not make a lot of mistakes (which, I will add, is a lot easier when the coaches are unwilling to call any passes farther than 10 yards) doesn't exactly blow my hair back. Maybe he's okay at not losing games, but he certainly hasn't shown the ability to win them.

To put him in the same conversation with Steve Young is a joke.

by Call It The Throw on Nov 15, 2007 8:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Blah blah blah

It's like you have nothing better to add to the argument than a faux (and futile) attempt to save Steve Young's face, as if he needs it. Everyone here is a frickin' 49ers fan. Everyone here has lived through the Young era (I'm assuming). No one is mistaking Smith for Young. No one is even putting Smith in the same VICINITY as what Young became.

All he originally was trying to say is that he has hope, as Alex has SHOWN some glimpses of what he may be capable of.

by sfgfan on Nov 15, 2007 9:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow, sorry to upset you

But try not to take it personally.

Accepting that no one is putting Smith in the same camp as Young, I still haven't seen glimpses of Smith being capable of serving as anything better than a decent back-up quarterback. I've been a big Smith defender until recently...this was the year that he had to prove something to me.

He's a third year pro for chrissake, I don't think I'm in some pessimistic minority in saying that he has been a tremendous disappointment and hasn't shown the ability to be a winner. Its nothing personal against Smith, I don't hate the guy, I just don't think he's shown much pro football talent. And again, not making a lot of mistakes is not the same thing as showing talent.

by Call It The Throw on Nov 15, 2007 10:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

He has shown me reasons as to why I think he can be a perfectlty capable NFL quarterback. The turnover factor is just one of them. I like his demeanor out of the huddle. I like his dedication to tape and self-evaluation. I like what I've seen from him late in quite a few games over his career. I like how he's responded to many criticisms with marked improvement (most notably the whole "small hands" thing) This season is a little troubling, absolutely, but it is marred in so many mitigating circumstances that it's tough to evaluate, and I have a hard time letting it erase the positives that I've taken from Smith in the past.

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down. Over and over. / My Blog, For Writers

by howtheyscored on Nov 15, 2007 9:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Okay, those are fair positives

But how long are we supposed to give this guy? We can keep saying that he is going to turn it around and become a solid pro, but the best we've seen is decent poise, pretty good scrambling, and the occasional ability to lead a drive.

Honestly, and I'm not trying to harp on this point or be a jerk, but what has he shown you that separates Smith from a decent back-up QB? Even at Young's worst, he showed flashes of greatness, not mere flashes of adequacy.

by Call It The Throw on Nov 15, 2007 10:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess all this comes down to

is how long a leash we're giving him. I've asked the question of the "3 year plan" for a qb vs. the "4 year plan" before. A lot of people subscribe to the 3 year plan. I have always prescribed to the 4 year plan. I feel like only exceptional QBs tend to show us what we're looking for by their third year, and the rest bring it fourth year or later.

So my rope for Smith is already longer than yours. I'm always willing to give a guy more than three years, because I think three years is so little time for a guy to develop over.

With me, Smith is a peculiar case. He only existed at the college level for two years, which is almost completely unheard of for QBs. So he practically jumped from high school almost straight to to the pros, and even in college he played in the least pro-system that exists. My problem is the question of how much extra rope that gives him... a five year rope is a loooong time to give anybody to show you what you want, but it's not all that much longer than four years...

I think he has to improve next year and show some stuff. I'll probably always wonder if he doesn't get the fifth year, but even my patience will wear very thin if I don't see a reason to be excited after 2008.

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down. Over and over. / My Blog, For Writers

by howtheyscored on Nov 15, 2007 10:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

editing error

I don't prescriibe for anything. By and large I stay away from prescriptions if at all possible.

I definitely subscribe to the 4 year plan, though.

I keep reliving the moment when Steve Young almost fell down. Over and over. / My Blog, For Writers

by howtheyscored on Nov 15, 2007 10:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I think your right

It boils down to how much rope we are willing to give the guy. For me it is case specific. I know Smith is young, but he was also the first player drafted and we sunk tons of money into him. And even if I am willing to give him four years, I would still expect to see improvement every year. He is worse this year than he was last year, even controlling for play calling and the O-line. When he has time, he can't make the throws he was making last year.

But it seems like an agree to disagree situation. I hope he turns out to be effective, but I doubt he will.

by Call It The Throw on Nov 15, 2007 10:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Rope

Another factor to consider in how much rope someone is willing to give a QB should depend on the situation he's in. Sure, three years (or even four) sounds reasonable in most cases, but Alex Smith doesn't play in "most cases." The damning factor, in my opinion, is the change in coordinators and systems EVERY YEAR OF HIS PRO CAREER. You can change systems seamlessly with established pros, but changing the system on a young guy should (and probably does) have dire consequences during those first few years.

So where do I stand? Considering some of being an NFL QB is system independent, I'd say that give him two years (consecutive) with a competent NFL offensive coordinator. If he never gets that, he'll never develop well enough.

by sfgfan on Nov 16, 2007 9:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not too much to compare

Young was out of college for years before he got to the Niners. First with the L.A. Express, then the Bucs. Smith actually got out of college early. So he's much younger.

I think the biggest difference between the two is that Young had the Bill Walsh system in place when he came along... and Alex doesn't.

I think that Smith has the raw talent to be a good quarterback in the NFL. I think that Hostler isn't going to find it. And I'm waiting for an explanation about this latest thing. If everyone else can see Smith wincing and losing his accuracy after the shoulder separation, how come the coaching staff doesn't see it. And why is Smith left hanging out to dry? Unless Hostler is gone and Nolan is roped off from the offense I don't see him improving under this regime.

As others have said, Smith was a good scrambler in college and incorporating that into his game would be the logical thing to do. You go with your strengths and your opponents' weaknesses. Of course, with him back on the bench with his shoulder that may have to wait for awhile. But think about it: The offensive line was having problems early in the season so they ran until their opponents crowded the box. Alex separates his shoulder and THEN Hostler starts calling for long passes.

Maybe Hostler will try to get Smith to throw with his left hand.

by Bob In Pacifica on Nov 15, 2007 6:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Smith, Hostler, and Nolan

Nolan has already explained it (in his own way) why Smith was still playing. I even elaborated on what I understand the situation to be. It's not much more difficult than that.

Could Nolan have taken him out? Sure. But even Smith couldn't admit today that taking him out was the best thing for the team. Why is that? Because an injured Smith is still better than Dilfer or Hill in on the action.

by sfgfan on Nov 15, 2007 9:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

So.

It's not like Smith got hung out to dry. If he didn't feel he could play, I'm sure all he had to do was tell doctors he was hurting more than he was letting on.

Either way, both sides made mistakes in this situation, so it's kind of irritating to see Nolan constantly get railed but Smith being portrayed as the victim.

by sfgfan on Nov 15, 2007 9:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

This is mean, but...

Look at these stats...

http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/young/stats.html

Man, do I miss Steve Young or what? It's interesting to note that his QB rating was phenomenal in his early 49ers' days, even with limited action. Then, in 1991, his first full season as the starter, he posts a 101.8 -- he really was/is underrated when it comes to the conversation of just sheer talent at the position. Yes, he was in a great system, but still...

by jaytierney on Nov 16, 2007 9:26 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Just a clarification...

As sfgfan explained to Call it the Throw, I wouldn't dare compare Smith to Young in their best days. Steve Young is my favorite 49er ever, and as I would consider myself a Smith Detractor, I wouldn't think of insulting Young like that. I was just hoping if we could see some light at the end of the tunnel with Smith, as his struggles more or less were similar to those of Young as far as I could tell from the '88 season.

Man, do I miss Young. I just may have to pop in my '94 Super Bowl DVD this weekend.

"If it looks like a rat and smells like a rat, by golly, it's a rat."

by UnleashTheGore on Nov 16, 2007 11:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I have the NFL films documentary on the 1994 Niners saved on my DVR. I am seriously close to the point where I would rather watch that then watch the team live on Sunday...

by Call It The Throw on Nov 16, 2007 11:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs